Touching himself on public transport

I agree and I feel for you. It is ingrained in society as a whole.

Women are encouraged to explain it away, 'It was accidental/clumsy/not what you thought'.

The worst problem is that most men don't want to deal with it. Even if it is something they wouldn't do themselves. They don't call out their friends' behaviour, they don't call it out when they see it happening even to their own female friends.

Why not? Because they are cowards. They are frightened of losing friends or starting a fight.

They like to think they would say/do something but the reality is they don't.

Lewd behaviour in public is explained away as being harmless. But it isn't. It is the type of behaviour which escalates.

Please report it, perhaps via the 101 number. Think of who it could be to next, a teenager perhaps?

What on earth makes you think telling the driver will mean this man will never do this again?!

Are you new to planet earth? Buses have CCTV. The bus company can pass it to police. Police can check if it's a serial offender.

It really isn't rocket science.

When i was in the 5th form we had late lessons because of O-level prep. Our day girls would go home afterwards, in the dark sometimes. One used to get picked up later than the others, so some of us boarders used to wait with her. And one day 3 of us were waiting there and got flashed (which isn't some pervy guy opening his raincoat, it was a man who pulled on a ski mask, pulled an erect penis from the front of his jeans and wanked off at hus. But we had seen his face, and the police eventually picked him up. After he'd raped 2 women.

apparently he had been "flashing" all over town for at least 2 years but people only came forward later. If only they'd reported quicker.

My partner did this!! Said to a man having an intimate/pervy wash in front of all the kids, 'hey, I wouldn't do that in front of my own kids let alone other peoples' and the man scuttled off! Loved him for it

Exactly this. It's saddening how often women question our own responses before we question men's behaviour. It's ingrained social conditioning and it's a very hard habit to break.

I'm no exception. I knew, the first time my creepy fucker of a colleague rubbed his body up against mine whilst I was engaged in conversation with someone else, exactly what he was about. Instead of challenging or reporting him then and there, I instead started a diary in which I logged incidents, in order to satisfy myself that I wasn't 'mistaken' and that it would be safe to go ahead and report.

It wasn't safe. OK, so the creep was eventually asked to leave after a long, gruelling and arduous grievance procedure, but I've been made to feel the effects of it ever since. To this day there are colleagues I no longer speak to unless absolutely necessary.

The blame wasn't placed on the creepy colleague, of course. The fault lay with the woman who'd had the audacity to report him and who was probably lying anyway. I endured nothing short of an attempted assassination of my character.

Yet I knew exactly what I was dealing with from the first incident. I could have trusted myself from that point. I didn't. And with good reason, given that what I endured in my workplace afterwards was almost as traumatic as the incident which provoked it (I was later stalked for years and it ended up a police matter).

These attitudes are endemic, and grossly in evidence on this thread. Here, on a support site for women. It's depressing and infuriating in equal measure.

This thread is ample evidence as to why women so often don't report.

Is it any wonder so many incidents like this go unreported

the op said she was distressed by what she saw, it’s normal to go over the event and second question what happened. If the the op was a school girl would we be treating her the same way ? I sincerely hope not

op I hope you do report it, I do believe that such incidents are taken more seriously but his actions of making you and others feel uncomfortable are down to him, I don’t blame you if you prefer not to report what you saw

Do you mean to sound like one of those gross defence lawyers, picking apart her account of what happened as if women can’t be trusted to understand what happens around them or to them? Especially distasteful when you’re making up your own narrative about this man, who you didn’t even see, and suggesting he may have additional needs.

It really depends on what he was doing the op went from listening to music, bopping away, touching himself or fondling himself. Two very different things, but also hugely different to her later statement he was actually full on wanking off.

now if he was having a wank, she needs to speak to the police. And of course he should be supervised. If he was sexually fondling, visibly aroused. Same thing. But if he was just briefly touching, and it clearly wasn’t sexual , not aroused, then grim but I don’t think police action or supervision is required. Not for me anyway and I wouldn’t consider myself a victim.

What on earth makes you think telling the driver will mean this man will never do this again?!

OP, I agree with telling the driver, but not to ‘save other women’ as if that’s your responsibility or within your control, but because it might help you feel better, although to be honest, it also might make you feel worse, depending on how the driver reacts. I ran into a few creeps on the tube over the last 15 years or so, and my approach is confronting it, I loudly call it out and it works very well, but only ever if there are other people around and I feel safe enough to.

Additional needs isn't an excuse. If he can't behave in public he needs to be supervised.

Agree, as the issue here is the man could have additional needs. He was engrossed in his music, not paying attention to other folks. It doesn’t even seem he was defo doing this in a sexual manner, although she’s escalated to to she’s a victim and he was wanking off on the bus. I’m not sure I believe it.touching yourself for men can also be a comfort thing, yes still inappropriate but not wanking himself off as she is now saying.

Here's the thing though. The OP literally says, last line:

Any tips for if I am in this situation again that will make me feel more empowered?

How can anyone give OP any tips if she doesn't know if there was something wrong with the behaviour? (there was)

If she doesn't feel it neccessary, or she doesn't feel able to tell the driver or the police. What are we supposed to suggest? because if a quiet word with the driver while you get off is too much, we can't very well suggest "whip out your phone and livestream it while shouting 'stop that you dirty fucker, amirite, fellow passengers' and put it on the internet"

so my question to OP (and i hope you're not feeling too shaken by this): what do you think would be the right thing to do if that happens again? (supplementary question: what if it's the same guy?)

i didn't say anyone was victim blaming and i didn't say if she was right or wrong. there is no right or wrong.

I was, because this is a chat board, giving my opinion on what the situation was.

But i don't think she's doing other women or people who might be exposed to this behaviour, any favours by not at least telling the bus driver. That is all. If you want to see that as me shouting "burn the witch" that's a you-problem.

Just because you can't relate doesn't make Op's actions wrong or right. I also haven't mentioned victim blaming.

is reporting to the bus driver/police being responsible for a man's actions? that's an odd thing to say.

OP didn't feel like confronting the guy, can relate. Didn't tell the driver - can't relate. Didn't tell the police - not having told the driver not much point, but you could report after the fact, just in case you're not the only one.

Reporting it to either or both the driver and police is surely supporting other women to potentially not have to put up with this? (if the police take action). It is not victim blaming and it is not making anyone responsible for the bus wankers actions.

I have not blamed the OP at any point. I am firmly in the ‘report him’ camp as we urgently need this behaviour to be stamped out and you acknowledge this in your post. Unfortunately, it comes down to us as women to report it, and the unfairness of that is just one of those things we have to deal with! I understand it’s a shit situation, but what else can we do?

Actually I totally get where op is coming from. These incidents tend to happen out of the blue when we are thinking about other things and it takes our brains a while to process them partly because fear, shock disbelief and disgust start to kick in. And, as op has stated, we are not always sure of context and what is happening until a few minutes have passed.

It’s quite likely that this man is doing this deliberately. He gets off on making women feel uncomfortable by being subtle. But he will push the boundaries more and more until he gets reported.

This is not the op’s fault at all and it’s unfair to blame her. It’s obvious she came on here because something unsettling had happened to her and she needs to process it. Posting on Mumsnet is one way of doing that. Next time she will be more prepared to act.

@froggirl DD said she was pretty shocked the first time it happened (she was a student in a new city, not used buses much before). Now as an adopted Yorkshire woman she is more comfortable about telling the driver.

Being more used to it doesn't lessen the offence, only the shock.

I do 🤭

Fair enough. We may have disagreed, but I hope you get help and support if you need it.

Bloody hell - now intimidated women are being criticised.

When are women going to be able to stop having to take responsibility for the actions of males?

Victim Support 0808 16 89 111

Crabs.

For goodness sake, that’s not at all my intention. But you keep contradicting yourself.