Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Reasonable to expect a surgeon to do this?

408 replies

Beeturpot · 07/05/2024 14:36

ex dh is a surgeon. He became a consultant after we separated. I did all drop offs etc and was called in all emergencies and if dc needed collecting etc. He said he couldn’t leave if in work as it wasn’t the sort of job that allowed it.

I have recently been promoted. I’m feeling resentful that I am doing all the running around for dc. They live with me. Is he right that this is too difficult for him? He claims to start work by 8am and often leaves late. I don’t know anyone in his area of work and i don’t know if he’s taking the piss. He does do his share at weekends. Just feeling fed up.

OP posts:
Searchingforthelight · 08/05/2024 00:23

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:16

Then they shouldn't have been allowed to. My heart bleeds for them on their 90k+ salaries.

Well it doesn’t really matter if your heart bleeds or not.
its just not enough for what they sacrifice to train, and it falls very short of for example nearby Ireland (270k). Huge numbers moving to Canada, Oz etc.
the government didn’t see fit to pay fairly. Consultants overwhelmed voted to strike and strike we did, for a long time.

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:21

Angelsrose · 08/05/2024 00:18

You clearly don't work in the NHS or the medical field so you have an idealised view of how things should be. The NHS is very stretched right now so there might not necessarily be someone to take on another's workload. Often there really isn't. That's why unfortunately the whole system (not just surgery) of the NHS is so utterly broken. You make blasé remarks about "this not being the job for you" to a very reasonable PP but could you take on any job within the NHS? It's always those who don't or won't or can't do a tough job who put unrealistic pressure on those who do. It's part of why the country is in decline.

I don't have an idealised view of it at all. As someone who has the misfortune to be on the other end of the situation, I know the NHS is a complete shitshow.

All the more reason why consultants shouldn't be allowed to cancel operations to deal with completely avoidable childcare issues.

If you work in a job like that, male OR female, you need a plan B.

potato57 · 08/05/2024 00:20

PyongyangKipperbang · 08/05/2024 00:13

MY daughter is in medicine. She lives with a warehouse worker. My mother (outed on the "Snob" thread) was horrified and asked why she isnt with a doctor. She said because all the men are shits who assume that their job is more important "Oh the wife will sort it" even if they are lower grade than "the wife" and the women end up on their knees.

But hey, dont let facts change your uninformed predjudice :)

My facts come from the people I work with in healthcare. Your daughter sounds like she has issues if she thinks ALL male doctors are like that. I know at least 20 who aren't, and I'd say it's much rarer to have doctors with that attitude than not, and it's usually because they're from a culture with those kinds of traditional values than because they're a doctor. But let's face it, a warehouse worker doesn't have the natural high ground, so it's never tested. If the warehouse worker became the warehouse owner, then you'd see if they changed their tune or not. Otherwise it's a nice cushy ride for them and no one questioning them either way.

Boogiemam · 08/05/2024 00:19

Sounds like the only people who should dare become surgeons are single people with no parents or family or anyone who may possibly ever become a dependent and who can be chained to the operating bed 24/7 and have no life. Nice.

Angelsrose · 08/05/2024 00:18

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:11

Yes, they will. During which time someone else will be doing the operations/taking the clinics and the patients won't be left high and dry.

Not sure which bit of that is difficult.

You clearly don't work in the NHS or the medical field so you have an idealised view of how things should be. The NHS is very stretched right now so there might not necessarily be someone to take on another's workload. Often there really isn't. That's why unfortunately the whole system (not just surgery) of the NHS is so utterly broken. You make blasé remarks about "this not being the job for you" to a very reasonable PP but could you take on any job within the NHS? It's always those who don't or won't or can't do a tough job who put unrealistic pressure on those who do. It's part of why the country is in decline.

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:16

Searchingforthelight · 08/05/2024 00:13

Nope. Consultants striked, for a long time. Did you miss it? Due to massive pay erosion, more than everyone else in the public sector. Perhaps Google it, it went on for a long time. Many appointments and ops were cancelled.

Then they shouldn't have been allowed to. My heart bleeds for them on their 90k+ salaries.

PyongyangKipperbang · 08/05/2024 00:13

potato57 · 08/05/2024 00:07

There are plenty of families where both parents are surgeons/GPs/another kind of super skilled high level healthcare role. Both work full time. They have nannies and au pairs and after school clubs and a support network. I see it all the time.

99% of the time the situation you're referring to is that the wife has been the one that's wanted kids most, has a rosy idea in her head of a stay at home mum baking fresh bread while listening to her children happily play in the garden, they can afford for her not to work, then she realises stay at home parenting 24/7 is hell and not the social media dream, they've chosen to live out in the middle of nowhere so there's nothing to do and everywhere is hell and hassle to get to all the time, then they get divorced and she's resentful and blames everyone else. Unless she was forced into marriage, those decisions were all 50/50. I'm sure she was happy to take the money and have the lifestyle.

Edited

MY daughter is in medicine. She lives with a warehouse worker. My mother (outed on the "Snob" thread) was horrified and asked why she isnt with a doctor. She said because all the men are shits who assume that their job is more important "Oh the wife will sort it" even if they are lower grade than "the wife" and the women end up on their knees.

But hey, dont let facts change your uninformed predjudice :)

Searchingforthelight · 08/05/2024 00:13

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:09

Junior doctors. Not consultants. Different kettle of fish entirely.

Nope. Consultants striked, for a long time. Did you miss it? Due to massive pay erosion, more than everyone else in the public sector. Perhaps Google it, it went on for a long time. Many appointments and ops were cancelled.

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:11

Angelsrose · 08/05/2024 00:09

It's alright to say "perhaps this isn't the job for you" but who is going to take over from her? You??? Surgeons are humans like everyone else so they will also be subject to illness and bereavement just as much as someone who works 9am to 5pm in an office.

Yes, they will. During which time someone else will be doing the operations/taking the clinics and the patients won't be left high and dry.

Not sure which bit of that is difficult.

Searchingforthelight · 08/05/2024 00:11

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:05

The difference is that presumably in the case of annual leave/sick leave/preplanned dependents' leave they will have someone covering their workload so patients aren't affected. Not so in the case of "I just need to pop off and collect little Johnny from nursery because there's nobody else to do it".

But that’s what a family emergency is - kid is sick, have to get them.
not pre planned.
it happens. To everyone who is a parent. That includes consultants and surgeons and yes we leave to go to our sick children.

Angelsrose · 08/05/2024 00:09

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:04

Then perhaps this isn't the job for you.

Have you not read the PPs response? Read the room.

It's alright to say "perhaps this isn't the job for you" but who is going to take over from her? You??? Surgeons are humans like everyone else so they will also be subject to illness and bereavement just as much as someone who works 9am to 5pm in an office.

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:09

Searchingforthelight · 08/05/2024 00:08

so handsomely rewarded that have been forced to strike for a year as the government has eroded pay far more than literally everyone else in the unlicensed sector.
lots of the good will… is gone

Junior doctors. Not consultants. Different kettle of fish entirely.

PyongyangKipperbang · 08/05/2024 00:08

Erdinger · 07/05/2024 23:59

He can’t leave his clinic or ward rounds , MDT meetings either really. Or when he is supervising his junior. He’s not taking OP for a ride and all these comments saying he can , well these people would be the first ones complaining if their surgeon had to leave a consult to pick up the DC from a play date. He can however outsource some of his childminding responsibilities for when he’s clearly not available

I am not saying he can, but I and others are saying that this is HIS problem to solve, not the OP's.

Lets flip it. The OP is the consultant surgeon and he has a 9-5. He says "No, your time your problem" if the there is an issue with the kids. So MN would be falling over themselves with "can you go part time?" "Apply for flexible working" "Hire a nanny, au pair" etc ad infinitum. And the OP would.

Point is that the OP would find a way to make it work, as do single mother nurses, consultants, midwives, GP's, ODP's or any on call medical professionals.

But when it is the man with the Big Job everyone is saying that she must still facilitate his career because ....SURGEON!!!! And? As far as I was aware , FATHER trumps that.

Fact is that this arsehole has got so used to the OP being his fall back that it hasnt crossed his mind that she doesnt have to do that any more if they are divorcing.

Cant help wondering why the divorce is happening.......

Searchingforthelight · 08/05/2024 00:08

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 07/05/2024 17:36

I'm not seriously suggesting it is on its knees because of the health of its consultants' kids. But when it is already on its knees for other reasons, when people already can not get the help they need in a timely manner or sometimes not at all, an incident like that would be enough to try the patience of a saint.

Can you honestly not put yourself in the shoes of someone living day to day with a debilitating condition, or in severe chronic pain, or waiting for a cancer operation, who may have waited months for an appointment for help and who has that appointment cancelled with no warning on the day for a reason like that? Not because the surgeon was sick, but because of a childcare issue?!

If your job carries this level of responsibility towards others - and you are that handsomely rewarded for it, which surgeons and consultants are - then I think the onus is on you to have a backup plan to not let those people down.

so handsomely rewarded that have been forced to strike for a year as the government has eroded pay far more than literally everyone else in the unlicensed sector.
lots of the good will… is gone

potato57 · 08/05/2024 00:07

PyongyangKipperbang · 07/05/2024 23:48

Oh do fuck off with BUT HE IS A DOCTOR!!!!!

Without the OP doing all the running around do you really think that he would be a consultant with kids?! NO! He would have had to choose one or the other, thanks to the OP he could have both.

He wouldnt have reached the level he is at if he didnt have the OP doing all the primary parenting and facilitating his career. This is the classic case of the wife losing out so he can do well and then he swans off with his big shiny important job (with pay cheque to match) while she still works her life around the kids but without at least the financial support he would provide. She is still doing her part of the deal but he can conveniently abdicate the part he played as they are divorced. She pays all the rent and bills etc alone and yet is still expected to facilitate him.

ITs gone on too long sadly I think to change, but its bullshit, utter bullshit.

Edited

There are plenty of families where both parents are surgeons/GPs/another kind of super skilled high level healthcare role. Both work full time. They have nannies and au pairs and after school clubs and a support network. I see it all the time.

99% of the time the situation you're referring to is that the wife has been the one that's wanted kids most, has a rosy idea in her head of a stay at home mum baking fresh bread while listening to her children happily play in the garden, they can afford for her not to work, then she realises stay at home parenting 24/7 is hell and not the social media dream, they've chosen to live out in the middle of nowhere so there's nothing to do and everywhere is hell and hassle to get to all the time, then they get divorced and she's resentful and blames everyone else. Unless she was forced into marriage, those decisions were all 50/50. I'm sure she was happy to take the money and have the lifestyle.

Angelsrose · 08/05/2024 00:06

Whatevershallidowithmylife · 07/05/2024 23:15

Oh yes, should probably say my operation being cancelled 4 times in six months has lead to my cancer no longer being operable but hey if your babysitter has let you down off you pop home, don’t worry about us mere patients terrified they’re going to die….

I have every sympathy with your plight but it won't be because of childcare issues, the most common problem is lack of beds for adequate post-operative care. This has been a problem for decades. I think it was Margaret Thatcher who determinedly reduced the number of beds available in the NHS. This has just declined more and more over time whilst the population increases. It's sad all round.

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:05

Searchingforthelight · 08/05/2024 00:02

This is ridiculous. The consultant is an employee and is entitled to annual leave, study leave sick leave and yes, carer’s leave. So yes, in a family emergency, like anyone else, will go to get their child. They are an employee with employees rights.

The difference is that presumably in the case of annual leave/sick leave/preplanned dependents' leave they will have someone covering their workload so patients aren't affected. Not so in the case of "I just need to pop off and collect little Johnny from nursery because there's nobody else to do it".

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:04

welshweasel · 07/05/2024 23:20

@Whatevershallidowithmylife you're gobsmacked that surgeons, and their children, are indeed human too?

Clearly I would do all I could to find another solution but genuinely what would you want me to do if my husband was away and my child had to be collected due to serious illness/injury?

Am I allowed to cancel an operation because I fall ill myself or is that also unreasonable?

I cancelled some patients a few weeks ago because my Dad died - should I have cracked on because they had been waiting years for their surgery?

You learn very quickly in this job that everyone is indispensable. To the managers I am simply someone to fill a slot on a rota. People literally drop down dead and the only concern is who will cover their next shift!

I'd feel bad for cancelling a patient but would ensure they were fitted in within the next week or so. I wouldn't regret being there for my child.

Then perhaps this isn't the job for you.

Have you not read the PPs response? Read the room.

Searchingforthelight · 08/05/2024 00:02

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 07/05/2024 16:47

If I'd been waiting for six months for an appointment with a consultant for a debilitating medical condition and I got to the hospital and found out it was cancelled because they'd left early to pick up their child, I'd be making an official complaint about it.

Yes, the child has to be picked up, but you can't cancel peoples' crucial appointments to do it. You'd have to get someone else to do it. Paid for, if necessary.

Christ, I hope you're not an oncologist!

This is ridiculous. The consultant is an employee and is entitled to annual leave, study leave sick leave and yes, carer’s leave. So yes, in a family emergency, like anyone else, will go to get their child. They are an employee with employees rights.

Erdinger · 07/05/2024 23:59

Greyheronsarethebest · 07/05/2024 14:41

even if he is a surgeon, he will not be in the theatre every day. There will be normal clinics, non clinical days etc. He is taking you for a ride. I can understand that he cannot leave an ongoing operation but that is not what he is doing every day.

He can’t leave his clinic or ward rounds , MDT meetings either really. Or when he is supervising his junior. He’s not taking OP for a ride and all these comments saying he can , well these people would be the first ones complaining if their surgeon had to leave a consult to pick up the DC from a play date. He can however outsource some of his childminding responsibilities for when he’s clearly not available

AgeingDoc · 07/05/2024 23:54

I haven't read every post as there are too many, but has anyone suggested that the father reduces his hours or requests changes to his work pattern so he can play a more active role in his child's life? I've seen one suggesting that he works more so that the OP can be more available for child care 🤔 but the flood of "go part time" posts that you'd generally find on any thread where a mother was finding it hard to combine her family and work commitments is conspicuous by its absence.
Men are entitled to apply for flexible working on exactly the same grounds as women after all. Now of course the employer is not obliged to grant anything and he may well get turned down, but you never know if you don't ask and there might be some tweeks to his job plan that would be possible. But what do we think is the probability that he has even considered it?
Of course there is no easy answer. I don't think the OP is really expecting her ex to walk out of theatre or cancel a clinic to do a routine school pick up and realistically 50:50 care would be very difficult. That would probably end up with the OP effectively co parenting with a nanny which may well not what she wants for the child. But she isn't asking for that, she is asking for some contribution to parenting in the week and some recognition that she also has other responsibilities and that is not unreasonable.
There will be potential solutions but they will be tricky,require effort and probably some expense and sacrifices on the part of the father. I know lots of female Consultants many of whom are mothers. Yes, we frequently do have to put work first and my DH definitely did considerably more school runs, parents evenings and nativity plays than me when our children were little but I didn't abdicate all responsibility and I don't know a single medical mother who did. Nobody told our husbands that they knew what we did for a living before they married us and that they shouldn't have had children with a doctor if they weren't prepared to be the default parent at all times. Lots of couples where one or both are doctors find ways to manage. Why should this man get to basically shrug his shoulders and say "I'm a busy person, not my problem" when it comes to his own child?

Windypants21 · 07/05/2024 23:53

And for what's its worth i think yanbu. You are entitled to a life...divorce is divorce, and he is the father of those children so if he can't physically pitch up then he needs to financially pitch up to allow reasonable child care cover in his absence.

PyongyangKipperbang · 07/05/2024 23:52

Redpaisely · 07/05/2024 23:45

Op, ask him to pay for a full time nanny, au pair

Might not be a bad idea to bring up his alternative childcare options in the divorce "Oh but I cant because I am a Big Important Surgeon"......"A part time nanny would cost X"

PyongyangKipperbang · 07/05/2024 23:48

Oh do fuck off with BUT HE IS A DOCTOR!!!!!

Without the OP doing all the running around do you really think that he would be a consultant with kids?! NO! He would have had to choose one or the other, thanks to the OP he could have both.

He wouldnt have reached the level he is at if he didnt have the OP doing all the primary parenting and facilitating his career. This is the classic case of the wife losing out so he can do well and then he swans off with his big shiny important job (with pay cheque to match) while she still works her life around the kids but without at least the financial support he would provide. She is still doing her part of the deal but he can conveniently abdicate the part he played as they are divorced. She pays all the rent and bills etc alone and yet is still expected to facilitate him.

ITs gone on too long sadly I think to change, but its bullshit, utter bullshit.

Redpaisely · 07/05/2024 23:45

Op, ask him to pay for a full time nanny, au pair