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Reasonable to expect a surgeon to do this?

408 replies

Beeturpot · 07/05/2024 14:36

ex dh is a surgeon. He became a consultant after we separated. I did all drop offs etc and was called in all emergencies and if dc needed collecting etc. He said he couldn’t leave if in work as it wasn’t the sort of job that allowed it.

I have recently been promoted. I’m feeling resentful that I am doing all the running around for dc. They live with me. Is he right that this is too difficult for him? He claims to start work by 8am and often leaves late. I don’t know anyone in his area of work and i don’t know if he’s taking the piss. He does do his share at weekends. Just feeling fed up.

OP posts:
sashh · 08/05/2024 07:29

Beeturpot · 07/05/2024 14:44

Thanks. I wasn’t just talking about pick ups etc. I meant he’s never once been available during his work day. But I’ve had to be.

It seems I’m being unreasonable though so thank you for replies

I don't think you are.

You need to know what his rota is. He is probably working NHS and some private work.

Surgeons do work long days sometimes but not every day, he will have clinic days and ward rounds.

Greyheronsarethebest · 08/05/2024 07:20

Bobloblaw84 · 08/05/2024 06:55

In almost all couples there is one parent whose career is better suited to being the primary parent. It’s not always the woman but in your case it appears it is.

I presume you’ve benefitted from the financial upside of being a surgeon’s wife.

Once the divorce is final he will pay you child support which is to cover the costs of being the primary parent.

If your role at work grows, use that sweet surgeon money to find a babysitter or nanny for top up care.

Looking to your husband is futile and will only cause you resentment.

I can only presume it's a bot responding. So much absurd tripe. It borders comical.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/05/2024 07:14

Westfacing · 08/05/2024 07:04

I presume you’ve benefitted from the financial upside of being a surgeon’s wife. Shock

The OP could be a high earner in her own right!

JFC it's not the 1950s!

And in any case, she's not a surgeon's wife anymore and she needs to be able to support herself now.

Westfacing · 08/05/2024 07:04

I presume you’ve benefitted from the financial upside of being a surgeon’s wife. Shock

The OP could be a high earner in her own right!

Bobloblaw84 · 08/05/2024 06:55

In almost all couples there is one parent whose career is better suited to being the primary parent. It’s not always the woman but in your case it appears it is.

I presume you’ve benefitted from the financial upside of being a surgeon’s wife.

Once the divorce is final he will pay you child support which is to cover the costs of being the primary parent.

If your role at work grows, use that sweet surgeon money to find a babysitter or nanny for top up care.

Looking to your husband is futile and will only cause you resentment.

Westfacing · 08/05/2024 06:42

I think the word 'surgeon' blinded a lot of posters to immediately being unsympathetic to the OP, as though she was expecting him to down scalpel to attend to his children.

Female surgeons upthread are managing to do school runs etc so her ex can't get away with doing nothing and I can understand her resentment, especially as the children live with her and she's the one doing the heavy lifting.

Beezknees · 08/05/2024 06:31

fluffypuffyrug · 08/05/2024 00:40

He can't just leave work on a whim in a role like that, but he can pay for a nanny or au pair to share the load.

I wouldn't care whether he's a surgeon, a space man or a supermarket worker, he's also a dad and he has to pull his weight.

This.

olympicsrock · 08/05/2024 06:00

I’m a consultant surgeon. My husband works away two days a week doing a senior role. We manage between us with no paid childcare.
A basic full time job plan is 10 sessions. Most surgeons do on call so some sessions will be evening, weekends leaving some non working time during the week. I do 11 sessions or PAs and have Wed afternoons off as my kids school has no wraparound care on Wednesdays.

On my theatre day ( once a week) I work from 8-6:30 . Ward rounds are at 8am but most surgeons work in a shared emergency care way where they only do the ward rounds 1/6 or 1/8 weeks. The rest of the time I start at 9am but get there earlier to get set up.
A surgeon has 1 day a week doing personal admin which is flexible and could be done from home. They will also spend at least half a day doing patient admin or desk work.

In a nut shell around 50% of my time is flexible and I could leave work / be free to look after my child.
If there is a true emergency, DH and I talk and work out who is most able to drop everything. If I had clinic and he had a critical meeting , I would cancel my clinic but do my best to telephone patients / add them onto my next clinic as overbooks etc. If I was in theatre this would be the trump card.

Surgeons have family emergencies just like everyone else. He should be pitching in.

I take my kids to the school bus 3 mornings a week and pick them up twice so he could help if he was near enough.

I would ask your Ex DH how many PAs he does. He will have control over his job plan and may be choosing not to have some more flexible time to be available to help with childcare.

Erdinger · 08/05/2024 05:13

PyongyangKipperbang · 08/05/2024 00:08

I am not saying he can, but I and others are saying that this is HIS problem to solve, not the OP's.

Lets flip it. The OP is the consultant surgeon and he has a 9-5. He says "No, your time your problem" if the there is an issue with the kids. So MN would be falling over themselves with "can you go part time?" "Apply for flexible working" "Hire a nanny, au pair" etc ad infinitum. And the OP would.

Point is that the OP would find a way to make it work, as do single mother nurses, consultants, midwives, GP's, ODP's or any on call medical professionals.

But when it is the man with the Big Job everyone is saying that she must still facilitate his career because ....SURGEON!!!! And? As far as I was aware , FATHER trumps that.

Fact is that this arsehole has got so used to the OP being his fall back that it hasnt crossed his mind that she doesnt have to do that any more if they are divorcing.

Cant help wondering why the divorce is happening.......

Yup and that’s why I wrote he can outsource the child minding responsibilities that he can’t fulfill. Guess you chose not to read this. It’s not gender specific at all as far as I’m concerned but there are certain jobs that you can’t just drop to pick up a child from a play date

Marchitectmummy · 08/05/2024 04:49

OP my husband is a consultant surgeon, its not all as black and white as people are saying. Is he NHS or private?

My husband for example works compressed hours, so he is largely unavailable for 4 days of the week. The NHS offer flexible solutions.

As others have said, surgeons are not operating every day, there are some meetings with colleagues for example that can not move. My husband has a weekly meeting at 8am to discuss patients who require clinical decisions spanning departments.

Others diary management is possible normally patient consulting on upcoming surgeries can be planned to suit diaries etc.

I'm not sure how you drill down in your situation however but hopefully that's helpful.

BOOTS52PollyPrissyPants · 08/05/2024 04:44

Why can't he pay for a nanny part time to collect the children and look after them until you are home from work. That would make your life so much easier and less stressful.

MissTrip82 · 08/05/2024 03:23

PyongyangKipperbang · 07/05/2024 23:48

Oh do fuck off with BUT HE IS A DOCTOR!!!!!

Without the OP doing all the running around do you really think that he would be a consultant with kids?! NO! He would have had to choose one or the other, thanks to the OP he could have both.

He wouldnt have reached the level he is at if he didnt have the OP doing all the primary parenting and facilitating his career. This is the classic case of the wife losing out so he can do well and then he swans off with his big shiny important job (with pay cheque to match) while she still works her life around the kids but without at least the financial support he would provide. She is still doing her part of the deal but he can conveniently abdicate the part he played as they are divorced. She pays all the rent and bills etc alone and yet is still expected to facilitate him.

ITs gone on too long sadly I think to change, but its bullshit, utter bullshit.

Edited

Can I ask what you think female doctors do? I don’t know any who’ve had to choose ‘one or the other’ and I don’t know any with a SAHP spouse either. Nobody is at home doing the running around for any of us.

OP your ex has to do what all of us who simply cannot leave work do - we have back ups on our backups on our backups and we pay them, from our ‘shiny important job’ pay cheques.

Takeaways · 08/05/2024 02:52

My child's surgeon told me that if you have a patient all prepped and ready to go for a procedure, you better be just about dying before you cancel it. I would be very upset if my surgeon was unreliable for this sort of thing. Not upset at his wife, but at him for not having other arrangements in place. I would change doctors if this was the sort of reason he was cancelling at the last minute. I can see for a surgeon this would be hard, but then he has to make other arrangements to cover himself. Not his wife, if she isn't able or willing to do it. What if she was a surgeon too?

I feel your pain OP as my own career has been sacrificed on the altar of my DH's career. It would bite more if it was an ex. You and your ex need to come up with an alternative, which might be for him to pay someone to be available to do pick ups if you both can't. Or he can pay you for it.

AgeingDoc · 08/05/2024 02:51

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:05

The difference is that presumably in the case of annual leave/sick leave/preplanned dependents' leave they will have someone covering their workload so patients aren't affected. Not so in the case of "I just need to pop off and collect little Johnny from nursery because there's nobody else to do it".

No, in my experience it is more often than not the exact opposite. People are usually quite willing to step up and help in a crisis if a colleague is unexpectedly ill or has some kind of personal problem, but I have never worked in a department that has the spare capacity to cover Consultants' entire workload when they are on holiday or long term sick etc.
Obviously the emergency cover has to be maintained at all times and it's a contractual obligation for most Consultants to absorb their colleagues' out of hours commitments when they are on holiday or study leave. So they'll be doing their own work, plus their share of the extra emergency cover but not the absent person's routine work. Some things might be suitable to delegate to a junior but if not, clinics, theatre lists etc just don't get booked. So no patients are actually cancelled as they never got a date in the first place, but the session isn't used so the effect on the waiting list is the same.
Same kind of thing with long term sickness. Plugging a gap for a few days is one thing and most people will help if they can, but if a colleague is off for months there is rarely the capacity to maintain full cover. We'd always ask for a locum in such circumstances but sometimes either the funding isn't forthcoming or you can't find anyone suitable in which case emergency cover is the priority and elective work suffers. You can't expect staff to do the work of more than one person indefinitely but they'll usually step up in an emergency.

WiseKhakiGoose · 08/05/2024 01:59

Dahlia444 · 08/05/2024 01:39

Consultants I work with have to make very late adjustments to clinics, surgical lists etc due to, in no particular order and off the top of my head -

Illness
Child illness
Other caring responsibility (e.g. elderly parent crisis)
Nanny illness
Grandparent (back up childcare) illness
Teenage child crisis (mental health)
Delayed travel back from leave
Bike accident on way to work
Bereavement
Emergency dental issue
Delays on motorway on way to work
Broken bones (mountain biking)

In fact all the same things that other people experience in life. Short of expecting consultants not to have children, not to mix at parties/events to catch illnesses, not to go on holiday in case they get stuck, not to have any physical hobbies, not to be in relationship with other doctors, not to travel to work... Even the best laid plans of back ups fail.

It isn't proportionate to have multiple layers of expensive back ups just in case. As per my list above small child illness is an occasional factor and one factor among many. Doctors are not robots, they are human like the rest of us. And, all bar one that I have worked with over my career, they are extremely dedicated to their work.

But life happens and expecting otherwise is ridiculous. Doctors are bound by the same set of leave policies as the rest of us (sick, carers leave, special leave, bereavement leave, parental leave etc) so if some on here are angry about Doctors having occasionally to take time off in an emergency, take it up with the policy makers not the individuals. And calling Doctors out for being morally and ethically unsuitable for the job if they don't sacrifice themselves on the altar of their job at the expense of their life is insulting.

Is good to hear from you, because you work with them. Can you please be more specific about what you mean by "very late adjustments to clinics"?

Does it mean they have an X amount of hours before they can make late adjustments, for example 24hr notice or 48 hr notice?

Or it means they can do it while at work, for example, they started working and after 4 hr, out of blue they need to make "very late adjustments" and leave work ASAP within 1hr and not finish their work shift after starting it?

Willyoujustbequiet · 08/05/2024 01:54

I'm sure a surgeon is more than capable of arranging childcare. It's not the OP's job to facilitate his career.

Dahlia444 · 08/05/2024 01:39

Consultants I work with have to make very late adjustments to clinics, surgical lists etc due to, in no particular order and off the top of my head -

Illness
Child illness
Other caring responsibility (e.g. elderly parent crisis)
Nanny illness
Grandparent (back up childcare) illness
Teenage child crisis (mental health)
Delayed travel back from leave
Bike accident on way to work
Bereavement
Emergency dental issue
Delays on motorway on way to work
Broken bones (mountain biking)

In fact all the same things that other people experience in life. Short of expecting consultants not to have children, not to mix at parties/events to catch illnesses, not to go on holiday in case they get stuck, not to have any physical hobbies, not to be in relationship with other doctors, not to travel to work... Even the best laid plans of back ups fail.

It isn't proportionate to have multiple layers of expensive back ups just in case. As per my list above small child illness is an occasional factor and one factor among many. Doctors are not robots, they are human like the rest of us. And, all bar one that I have worked with over my career, they are extremely dedicated to their work.

But life happens and expecting otherwise is ridiculous. Doctors are bound by the same set of leave policies as the rest of us (sick, carers leave, special leave, bereavement leave, parental leave etc) so if some on here are angry about Doctors having occasionally to take time off in an emergency, take it up with the policy makers not the individuals. And calling Doctors out for being morally and ethically unsuitable for the job if they don't sacrifice themselves on the altar of their job at the expense of their life is insulting.

WiseKhakiGoose · 08/05/2024 01:00

Beeturpot · 07/05/2024 14:44

Thanks. I wasn’t just talking about pick ups etc. I meant he’s never once been available during his work day. But I’ve had to be.

It seems I’m being unreasonable though so thank you for replies

What? You expect him to be available during his work time like you? No, he can't.

Some jobs, being a surgeon is one of those jobs where is unreasonable to drop out the job and be available for your family. Especially if it's not a life and death situation. Even during a life and death situation, he may not be available same moment, and you'll need to wait a few hours.

Mossstitch · 08/05/2024 00:48

Beeturpot · 07/05/2024 14:44

Thanks. I wasn’t just talking about pick ups etc. I meant he’s never once been available during his work day. But I’ve had to be.

It seems I’m being unreasonable though so thank you for replies

I don't think your being unreasonable at all, I know of two consultants at work that have had to leave for childcare reasons..........strangely enough they are both female!! Surgeons are not permanently in theatre, they are often in clinics,ward rounds, teaching or at lunch.

BobbyBiscuits · 08/05/2024 00:45

He's definitely a good surgeon then if he doesn't think postponing life saving operations is reasonable in order to pick up his children.
I fail to see how any NHS or even private doctor or nurse of any level could bunk their shifts for this? Hopefully he has money, so could he not fund a childminder to ease the burden?

WiseKhakiGoose · 08/05/2024 00:42

OP ask him to send you shifts time, and plan your time accordingly. Ask him specifically how often his shift time is changing last minute. Obviously, if is once a month is ok, but if it's every day, then he's lying. All surgeries and appointments are planned ahead.

fluffypuffyrug · 08/05/2024 00:40

He can't just leave work on a whim in a role like that, but he can pay for a nanny or au pair to share the load.

I wouldn't care whether he's a surgeon, a space man or a supermarket worker, he's also a dad and he has to pull his weight.

WiseKhakiGoose · 08/05/2024 00:35

I already imagined how a surgeon in the middle of a surgery is telling to everyone: "sorry, I'm out, family emergency " 🤣🤣🤣🤦‍♀️

WiseKhakiGoose · 08/05/2024 00:33

"If he's up to his arms in a patient in the middle of surgery he can't just drop everything to go and pick up a child from a playdate"🤣🤣🤣

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 08/05/2024 00:25

Searchingforthelight · 08/05/2024 00:23

Well it doesn’t really matter if your heart bleeds or not.
its just not enough for what they sacrifice to train, and it falls very short of for example nearby Ireland (270k). Huge numbers moving to Canada, Oz etc.
the government didn’t see fit to pay fairly. Consultants overwhelmed voted to strike and strike we did, for a long time.

It's plenty. And plenty enough to afford to pay for a babysitter so your patients don't end up with inoperable cancer, like a poor PP who's had her surgery cancelled four times.
But no, at least two surgeons on this thread think that apparently they "shouldn't have to do that".