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Reasonable to expect a surgeon to do this?

408 replies

Beeturpot · 07/05/2024 14:36

ex dh is a surgeon. He became a consultant after we separated. I did all drop offs etc and was called in all emergencies and if dc needed collecting etc. He said he couldn’t leave if in work as it wasn’t the sort of job that allowed it.

I have recently been promoted. I’m feeling resentful that I am doing all the running around for dc. They live with me. Is he right that this is too difficult for him? He claims to start work by 8am and often leaves late. I don’t know anyone in his area of work and i don’t know if he’s taking the piss. He does do his share at weekends. Just feeling fed up.

OP posts:
Angelsrose · 07/05/2024 18:42

I understand why you are asking the question op. The impression from the public (understandably) is that surgeons cannot be interrupted for any reason ever. The reality is that not every moment of every day can be taken up with operating and there are breaks within the day. As we all know surgeries are often cancelled due to lack of beds. I would be surprised if every day was solidly taken up with operating, even surgeons have to do outpatient clinics to discuss procedures with patients. In what field does he work? I'd say something like obstetrics and gynaecology and colorectal are the most unpredictable. Other fields you would struggle to find a consultant after a certain time but they will be "on-call" but it won't be the same person everyday. Don't burn yourself out, he should contribute to arranging childcare, if not in person then at least monetarily.

TequilaNights · 07/05/2024 18:42

He should be arranging childcare just as you would if you didn't have anyone to help

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:41

you know the NHS is understaffed in many specialties. Consultant surgeons are not as common as a nurse or a GP.

Meaning what?

You think there wouldn't be another consultant who could take over? That would be really unusual. Could happen, and I don't know the NHS well enough to say, but you're inventing scenarios

PuntasticUsername · 07/05/2024 18:41

I'm shocked (well, not that shocked) that we've heard from a female surgeon who successfully balances her job with her parenting responsibilities.

I'm shocked (well, not that shocked) that people think her male counterparts are simply far too important to do the same for their own kids.

I'm shocked (well, not that shocked) that most posters seem to think that this is an issue just for employees to solve for themselves, rather than the partial responsibility of their employer - an employer that clearly doesn't do enough to help its employees in this regard. Because it involves actually spending money and putting effort in, presumably, when waving flags and claiming "EDI is a priority for us" costs nothing.

parkrun500club · 07/05/2024 18:40

Singleandproud · 07/05/2024 14:40

I can't really help, you can't force someone to have their children even if he was making it up but I suspect he is right in terms of not being able to leave mid surgery etc whether or not he could leave after or before the fact I don't know. however, he could outsource his parenting and pay a childminder or nanny on his days so that it doesn't always fall to you. But I don't think anyone would make that happen so you are relying on his good will.

Why does the OP have to rely on goodwill?

I totally agree that his job doesn't make it easy to do his fair share, and presumably the maintenance he pays (and the lifestyle she had before they split) reflects that.

BUT: they are still his kids, and he is still 50% responsible for them.

It's not a question of "goodwill", it's a question of being a father and doing his share of looking after his own kids.

I also suspect that he does start at 8am and does leave late. Especially if he is doing private work as well.

So he needs to pay for extra childcare. Or find another solution, like willing relatives.

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:40

Why can’t stepping up mean pay an annual allowance to OP to fund a nanny ?

It can.

But it won't affect the second part of OP's situation:

I did all drop offs etc and was called in all emergencies and if dc needed collecting etc.

In an emergency, the OP's ex should participate in the decision-making. Maybe their nanny can help, or parents. And maybe sometimes, a parent is needed, and in that case, OP's ex may need to be available.

As my DBro has had to be on occasion, each time a colleague covering for him, as he has other times for them.

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 07/05/2024 18:40

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:36

Why do these parents not have a back up plan?

Like what?

That's their responsibility to sort out.

They're in a job where leaving at short notice will cause untold problems for other people. They have children. They must KNOW that at some point those children are going to be sent home early from school or nursery or need picking up in an emergency; come on, some of them are literally brain surgeons.

Why should their patients, already at the mercy of an absolute shitshow in the NHS, suffer further for their lack of forward planning?

IbisDancer · 07/05/2024 18:38

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:36

But wrap around childcare wouldn't resolve an issue with a sick child.

In reality, most doctors will pay for extended hours with an experienced nanny, in order to mitigate against these situations.

But yes, sometimes, a parent is needed and that will impact on an appointment or surgery. In most cases another colleague will step in. So it's a small number of rare situations where this may happen; and the OP's exH can absolutely be available more than he's indicating.

I don’t agree, you know the NHS is understaffed in many specialties. Consultant surgeons are not as common as a nurse or a GP.

mactire · 07/05/2024 18:37

Winter2020 · 07/05/2024 18:35

Hi OP,
If your husband was able to do 50% of the parenting/childcare (which I know he is not) he would not legally have to pay any maintenance I believe.

If due to his job his contribution is going to be more like 90%/10% or 80%/20% with you doing the lions share then try to negotiate a high level of maintenance that allows you to pay for childcare -or whatever helps lighten your load like a cleaner/gardener.

It is rubbish that he can't be a 50% parent or do his share if your kids are sick off school but it sounds like the only way that would be possible is to ask him to give up his job or for him to employ a nanny at his house half of every week, for example, so it wouldn't be him doing his half of the week it would be outsourced.

Aye but when the kids have grown up and OPs career progression (and pay) has been capped due to her constantly being the on-call parent, where does that leave her?

heathspeedwell · 07/05/2024 18:37

You are not being unreasonable because his inflexible work hours are reflected in his salary and he should therefore be able to share parenting equally with you. Many men on much lower wages have to cope with long working hours but still manage to organise child care, even if they can't do it in person.

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:36

Why do these parents not have a back up plan?

Like what?

IbisDancer · 07/05/2024 18:36

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:33

@RobBeckettsGiantTeeth

Are you wilfully misunderstanding?

Firstly my posts are addressing the other poster @welshweasel that you challenged about cancelling surgery when there was no other option.

Secondly, many posters who work in the profession know that there are times when a doctor (surgeon) can do drops or pick ups, and have said so. You keep being overly dramatic about life or death surgical situations. That's not what OP is referring to.

Thirdly, they are divorced. They need to reach a suitable arrangement whereby her ex takes responsibility for his DC. That doesn't have to mean every pick up is shared, there may be a few options that they can agree together. Saying he can never step up or be available is untrue.

In some ways this profession has more flexibility than other jobs.

But why is stepping up meant as he must collect and run around DC in person? Why can’t stepping up mean pay an annual allowance to OP to fund a nanny ?

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:36

Rosscameasdoody · 07/05/2024 18:32

Simple question. How would you feel if your surgeon cancelled your op because they had to do emergency childcare. Or you’d had to wait months for a hospital appointment and then it was cancelled for similar reasons. I think wrap around childcare is the answer here.

But wrap around childcare wouldn't resolve an issue with a sick child.

In reality, most doctors will pay for extended hours with an experienced nanny, in order to mitigate against these situations.

But yes, sometimes, a parent is needed and that will impact on an appointment or surgery. In most cases another colleague will step in. So it's a small number of rare situations where this may happen; and the OP's exH can absolutely be available more than he's indicating.

Winter2020 · 07/05/2024 18:35

Hi OP,
If your husband was able to do 50% of the parenting/childcare (which I know he is not) he would not legally have to pay any maintenance I believe.

If due to his job his contribution is going to be more like 90%/10% or 80%/20% with you doing the lions share then try to negotiate a high level of maintenance that allows you to pay for childcare -or whatever helps lighten your load like a cleaner/gardener.

It is rubbish that he can't be a 50% parent or do his share if your kids are sick off school but it sounds like the only way that would be possible is to ask him to give up his job or for him to employ a nanny at his house half of every week, for example, so it wouldn't be him doing his half of the week it would be outsourced.

CuteCillian · 07/05/2024 18:34

*But he's being paid a decent amount and their should be able to arrange an "on call" nanny/au pair/childminder for the days he is responsible

Just leaving it to OP to pick it all up, having her work affected, her career taken less seriously, her pay reduced for emergency leave isn't on - THEY ARE SEPARATED! He needs to arrange his own childcare, end of.*

Exactly.

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 07/05/2024 18:33

Crabble · 07/05/2024 18:22

Yes I have, actually. And I am so grateful to the people who saved me. I can’t imagine treating them with the complete cold hearted disdain which you are. Your approach of “Thank you for saving my life but frankly fuck you” is not how I saw it at all.

People’s surgery is cancelled for all kinds of reasons, usually not because of the surgeons who are extremely dedicated and hard working people who go above and beyond for their patients. do you think the NHS only cancels cancer operations occasionally or for surgeon’s convenience?

Im not surprised you say “not my concern”, your attitude on this thread is selfish and unrealistic in equal measure.

I'm not treating anyone with anything.

I'm saying that no, it's not acceptable to cancel someone's vital surgery or crucial appointment that they may have been waiting in severe pain for months to have to go and pick your kids up from nursery. The fact that you (not you-you, again, you general) do not have a back up plan for that eventuality - which surely you must have realised as a parent is likely to happen at some point - is none of my concern.

Why do these parents not have a back up plan?

IbisDancer · 07/05/2024 18:33

BMA pay scale for NHS indicates he is probably on a base salary of £112,356 after 9 years experience. If he has only 4 years, he would be on a minimum of £105,390

Plus a minimum annual bonus (clinical excellence award) of £7,900 and maximum of £36,192

If he’s a really excellent surgeon, his annual bonus would pay for the nanny!

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:33

@RobBeckettsGiantTeeth

Are you wilfully misunderstanding?

Firstly my posts are addressing the other poster @welshweasel that you challenged about cancelling surgery when there was no other option.

Secondly, many posters who work in the profession know that there are times when a doctor (surgeon) can do drops or pick ups, and have said so. You keep being overly dramatic about life or death surgical situations. That's not what OP is referring to.

Thirdly, they are divorced. They need to reach a suitable arrangement whereby her ex takes responsibility for his DC. That doesn't have to mean every pick up is shared, there may be a few options that they can agree together. Saying he can never step up or be available is untrue.

In some ways this profession has more flexibility than other jobs.

Rosscameasdoody · 07/05/2024 18:32

Simple question. How would you feel if your surgeon cancelled your op because they had to do emergency childcare. Or you’d had to wait months for a hospital appointment and then it was cancelled for similar reasons. I think wrap around childcare is the answer here.

Hayliebells · 07/05/2024 18:30

Throwaway1234567890000000 · 07/05/2024 18:19

Just FYI - not quite. They make 100k ish unless private and will take home circa 55% of that.

A nanny would cost circa £35k a year.

That leaves £20k to live on.

It is doable but not likely. People forget that when you employ someone you have to pay their gross salary from your net salary.

The nanny isn't needed every day, only on the days OPs ex has responsibility for childcare. So he only needs to employ a part-time nanny, or get an au-pair, which should be more than doable on his salary. If they're employing a full-time nanny between them, they share the cost. There isn't a scenario where OP's ex is shouldering the cost of a full-time nanny alone, so his salary is more than sufficient imo. He may not like it, but he can do it. The deal where OP is his default childcare is over, as they're getting divorced.

IbisDancer · 07/05/2024 18:28

“They make 100k ish unless private and will take home circa 55% of that.”

take home pay calculator with 5% pension contribution says they would take home 67% of £100k

If he makes even £110k, he’d take home £74k.

RobBeckettsGiantTeeth · 07/05/2024 18:27

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:23

You can NOT cancel someone's vital cancer surgery because your kids' nursery wants them to go home.

Nobody was saying that was the scenario.

However, if the scenario is that a surgeon's DC is seriously unwell or in a&e or for some other reason needs the care of their parent, of course the surgeon can go & cancel an appointment or surgery.

They won't do it on a whim.

And what's the fictional back up plan you think could be used?

Your posts make zero sense.

That's exactly the scenario. From the OP: "I’m feeling resentful that I am doing all the running around for dc. "

She's not talking about her kids being seriously unwell or in A&E; she just doesn't want to do "all the running around" and expects him to leave work to step up "if DCs need collecting etc". Her words.

So, no. Of course the surgeon can't go and cancel an appointment or surgery because the kids "need collecting" and if they think they can then yes, they're in the wrong job.

IbisDancer · 07/05/2024 18:25

Throwaway1234567890000000 · 07/05/2024 18:19

Just FYI - not quite. They make 100k ish unless private and will take home circa 55% of that.

A nanny would cost circa £35k a year.

That leaves £20k to live on.

It is doable but not likely. People forget that when you employ someone you have to pay their gross salary from your net salary.

Not “they” but he alone makes over £100k. OP probably makes at least half that. Combined, they can afford a part time live out nanny.

tridento · 07/05/2024 18:25

viques · 07/05/2024 14:56

It’s a bit like the old “my partner is a long haul airplane pilot , is it fair I have to do nearly all the emergency pickups….”

or “ my partner is the commander of an atomic submarine , is it fair I have to do nearly all the emergency pickups”

or “ my partner is on deployment in a war zone, is it fair I have to do nearly all the emergency pickups”

Actually the submarine one is probably a fair moan because I am not sure we actually have any nuclear subs in commission at the moment…….

Only it's not her partner. It's her ex. She is no longer responsible for facilitating his career. Either he sorts out contingencies to cover him or he changes career to one that enables him to be a responsible parent. That's obviously not the likely choice but why do people think the op should be curbing her career progression to facilitate his when they are no longer together?

EarringsandLipstick · 07/05/2024 18:23

You can NOT cancel someone's vital cancer surgery because your kids' nursery wants them to go home.

Nobody was saying that was the scenario.

However, if the scenario is that a surgeon's DC is seriously unwell or in a&e or for some other reason needs the care of their parent, of course the surgeon can go & cancel an appointment or surgery.

They won't do it on a whim.

And what's the fictional back up plan you think could be used?

Your posts make zero sense.