Aibu to think education at the moment is a race to the bottom?

Just to make a general point which I know won't be popular, but hey...

Of course education policy needs to cater for all children and aim to meet their diverse needs, but inclusivity at all costs is a disaster for the country as a whole. We need to ensure that able students get what they need and are able to reach their potential. This was what the grammar schools did, and yes, I know there is another side to that coin.

Otherwise, where parents can afford it, these children will go to independent schools. Parents of able children should be able to entrust them to the state system and I think it's an absolute priority to regain the confidence of parents. Schools need to do their best to eliminate classroom disruption - that's the problem, not so much the fact that children of possibly lesser ability will be in the classroom too.

I'm sorry to sound so hard-line, but I've worked in schools where ideology trumped every other objective. It was far more important to be seen to be totally inclusive than to do what was best for individual children. I could give many examples!

And if I'm coming over as a nasty educational reactionary, I'm really not - but I am a pragmatist, not an ideologue. I used to hate the 'Gifted and Talented' initiative, actually, which I thought was totally wrong-headed approach to meeting the needs of able students. I thought that was appallingly elitist! You don't label children in that way at school, for a start, and secondly, extra opportunities for enrichment should be open to every child who wants to participate, not some chosen elite. If a child with learning difficulties wants to join the Shakespeare theatre trip, then they should be encouraged - it wouldn't harm the potential Oxbridge contingent's experience of it!

This is exactly what Progress 8 exists to combat. All Year 7 have a baseline and they have to individually achieve against this baseline which is set on prior achievement

Progress 8 is listed in the league tables and used by OFSTED.

Schools have to push high achieversand it’s nonsense say 4s are all they are after. Every child’sgrade counts under this measure

Nicely, There's a lot we cant control. Being born into a loving family counts for a lot. MN 'I took you to stately homes threads' for the damage that abusive childhoods have. My ds's get brownie points for having invested parents. Most Mn'ers are invested, else we wouldn't be here! Some of us (not me!) are born with all the blessings. Ds1 was at school with many many children who had it all : lovely, good looking, incredibly intelligent, sporty, girlfriend, rich parents, the lot. Many really good schools get struggling dc to Oxbridge.

Schools and teachers are in an impossible position. The comprehensive ethos, push for inclusion of all in one classroom and lack of resources means that as long as everyone achieves a 4, it’s a win. It is surely a socialist ideal - everyone gets the same outcome regardless of ability.

What about people who have to prioritise putting food on the table or dealing with their disability or the breakdown of their marriage? Or a million other reasons why people can't research and then move close to a great school.

You are right to say that some parents have a choice. These parents will make their choice and their kids will do well.
My concern is that schools are failing the other kids, the ones who want to do well but don't have support - and don't have a choice.

I don’t have a northern chip and I’m not moaning 🤣 I’m quite happy with where I am! I don’t know where in my posts I gave you the impression that I am anything else.
It’s relevant that I am in the north because we don’t have grammar schools, that’s all! And we have a good deal fewer independent schools. I don’t personally think that’s a problem, but the choice here is basically state or state, so suggesting that if you’re not preparing your child for the 11+ or applying for bursaries you mustn’t care about your child’s education is laughable when that option isn’t available to everyone.
Again, I couldn’t care less - my kids go to a great primary and will go to a great secondary, and have engaged parents, so they will do well.
But do you not see the problem when you’re suggesting that people move to get into grammar or independent, and if you don’t do this you mustn’t care about education, when actually we should be looking at bringing the bad schools up to standard so that doesn’t have to happen?

Sorry @Oblomov24 🤣
I'm finding it hard to catch up whilst at work- I think my message is intended for @Probablygreen

@Oblomov24
Someone has a Northern Chip!
Honestly, why do you feel the need to state that you are in the North? The post is not about compass points but decisions people make and sacrifices people do make so that they can be happy with the choice they made for their children.
Because- it is always a choice! And- if then you prioritise other things such as living close to family and not having to commute much, good for you!
This is what I was trying to say to OP. Fundamentally, she made a choice, whether she realises and accepts it or not.
When you own that choice, rather than moaning about it.. you make the best of it and provide also what you can to educate your children and broaden the curriculum.
It is not just the school's job.
And plenty of parents from some of the top schools in the country do realise this and do this.. they are not sat back bemoaning a lack of homework 🤣

Absolutely. My secondary was absolutely appalling, everyone knew it and they tried to close it down. At least half of wvery lesson was behaviour management and most teachers were not specislists in their area. I did get a full scholarship to private selective school but refused to go and my parents rightly or wrongly didn't force me. My brother got a full scholarship and did attend.
I got all A and A* through teaching myself from the revision books. My brother got a mix of B's and C's, I would say he was naturally brighter than me, but didn't commit to revision like I did.

So a bright child who had a good attitude to learning will get excellent GCSE's whatever school they are at. A levels are a big jump and fo require better teaching though.

I really wouldn’t include the amount of homework given as part of your judgement of the school. It’s what happens during the day of teaching that matters.

@Probablygreen ok, you say you do own it, and your other reasons why you choose to live where you love also sound completely sound. We have good schools round us, there are lots of good schools. I said nothing about North or South. (the tv series with Patrick Swayze I liked years ago!) How you got to my comment be comparing it to N v S I'm not sure. Ds1 was very keen on Durham Uni for years, but he course was not quite right.

Plenty of comprehensives have very good GCSE results. Obviously across the board they don’t do as well. But their brightest students do as well those in grammar. Just because you can’t see how it can work doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of evidence it works. If you are in a grammar area, then of course the comprehensives don’t have a top set. The brights students have already been creamed off the top. It’s not true in comprehensive areas. Do you then think that no one succeeds in exams in non grammar areas?

No, and we do have 2 really excellent comps in our area. But my son wanted a single-sex school and, when we did our school open day visits, the GS stood out as being right for him. It was a scruffy Edwardian building with peeling paint, but with fantastic, confident, articulate, enthusiastic boys and really well-qualified staff who could push the students to their full potential They were ther because the school (as with in independent school) gave them the chance to actually teach and convey a passion for their subject, not merely to practise riot control.

I don't care about how smart a school is in terms of appearance - it doesn't bother me. What I wanted for my children were schools were the other families would support the school and valued education for their children. I didn't want any nonsense with lessons being disrupted.

• for students, who can look the coolest to their peers by overtly giving the least amount of fucks about their work

Some people do have a choice, but lots really don't.
Lots of areas have no grammar schools and even with bursaries, lots of parents could not afford private school.
If researching schools - which lots of people do where I live - means moving to a good catchment, this again is for wealthier parents.
I do believe that kids with clued in parents can do fairly well (fairly, I say, not very) in almost any school, which I think is what the OP is saying.
The problem is for kids of parents who for whatever reason think that schools are providing the education and they don't have to.

State grammar had very little homework until gcse, they got most work done in class. A disruptive class may mean more needs to be done at home.

Homework for a 7 year old ?

We want well rounded individuals in the future not rote machines

“The entire curriculum is unfit for purpose now.

People are still not grasping how much AI is going to impact the next generation.”

I think most DCs learn digital skills out of school anyway. It is part of their day to day lives, deeply ingrained and they do mentor each other. GCSEs are an exercise in memory and organisation skills and being “on top of it”. And also about exam technique and revising correctly, Most of life is about figuring out the system as well, passing hurdles to prove to others that they want you on their team etc. In most schools GCSEs are only a big deal from lent term of year 10 onwards so as long as you don’t have gaps and focus then, a DC should be fine. I agree that before that broader Education has to come from parents. But I disagree that it has to be very academically old fashioned, culturally focussed. We are middle class so the DCs all play several instruments, speak foreign languages (that one was hard work), have travelled and have historical awareness. But I would never judge a young person at interview on whether they have these class and cultural markers. I am more interested in how their mind works and their work ethic and legal skills.

Loads of reports show homework is utterly pointless. I don’t think that’s an accurate indicator of a school’s ability to teach.

But they are doing this by dragging down the top not improving the bottom.

Was the same 40 years ago. I went to a shirt comprehensive and basically educated myself. Got my maths O-level age 10 and by the time I was in what is now year 6, I was getting work sent down from the high school.

Move to the high school was awful.. Full of troglodytes who had no intention of working. The school was right next to the jail and the joke was it was a free pass for most of the boys from one to the other. The girls were mostly concerned with smoking, shagging and getting pregnant.

There was one top stream and 5 remedial streams - and the top stream was not all that good. I spent four years (because I was moved up a year in an attempt to get me out in case I got corrupted) being bullied and ignored. The year I left hated me and the year I moved into hated me even more as I was younger and still got better grades.

Maths and Physics A-levels were passed at age 12. Computer science and geography at 13. Still had to attend those classes and the teachers great idea was to get me to help out the rest of the class (who were older than me) - you can imagine how well that went down. By the time I was doing the rest of my GCSE's I was doing the subjects I liked less as I'd already passed the others.

how did I end up there? My parents were poor. I sat an entrance exam for the local private school and passed with flying colours but as I needed a scholarship I had to pass the interview. There was no training or guidance given on the correct answers as my primary school had never had anyone even dram of applying. When asked why did I want to go ABC Private school my answer was, "If the other options was XYZ Comp which would you choose".

What was my point in all this?

Grammar school would have been my saviour and I'll always regret I was born too late to take advantage of it and I fell sorry for bright kids in a shit school. Even with the best teachers, you cannot isolate them from the Neanderthals that lurk in the bottom sets.

I do own it. I chose to live near my family, in a place where both DH and I have good jobs for which we don’t have to commute so we can spend time with our kids instead. We live near some really good state schools, one of which is one of the top performing secondary schools in the country. We invest a lot in our children’s education. That doesn’t take away from the fact that whilst we have a choice which great state school we send our children to, there are no grammar or independent options available to us as a middle class family.
According to your logic, if you live in the North, you’ve chosen not to care about your child’s education. I don’t think it really works like that.

@Probablygreen
I think you were unfair to @Pinkiepromise789 . She makes a very valid point. We all make choices. You choose to live where you do, as do we all. If people want, they can and do make provisions, prior to even having children, or once they've had children, to question where they live and if schools are good. If you choose to live somewhere where the schools are not great, then at least own that choice. People have 14 years of schooling, prior to gcse's starting, that they could've moved or made other choices during that time, if they had chosen to make good schooling their top priority.

The entire curriculum is unfit for purpose now.

People are still not grasping how much AI is going to impact the next generation.

Bright students do well at GCSE without having to be stretched and challenged because GCSEs are easy for those children. It doesn't encourage them to do their best or be confident at speaking in front of peers or to take pride in their work - a few GCSE As from the brightest students are not an indicator that a school is doing a great job.

Gosh where do you all live that you have a choice of schools?

The focus in state education at the moment is very much on levelling and reducing the attainment gaps between poorer children and everyone else. Its also heavily focussed on getting the highest possible proportion to "age related expectations" which thus becomes almost a floor standard rather than an average.

Its impossible to have these targets AND try to stretch & challenge your more able learners (which tends to open the gap more, not less).

you felt this wasn't right for your child, did you start preparing them for 11 plus, scholarships/ burseries??
If not, why not?

Is this a joke? Most areas do not have grammars. These days the scholarships and bursaries offered by most private schools often only cover a tiny percentage of the fee unless you are on very low income. For most middle class families with high mortgage costs etc, its simply not possible to consider private schools.

In most areas there's also very little real choice of schools, it will depend where you can afford to live & what transport is offered. Where I live the schools are all a bus ride away, there aren't public bus routes to most of them & the council only provides school coaches to the nearest secondary (not the grammars, even if you've got a place). It can be a nightmare for a working parent to work out how to get a child to a different school.