Muslim vote (the group, not people generally)

This soo funny. Bit of self reflection wouldn't go a miss. "Muslims aren't sheep" "but oh look at the Jew telling others in their community how to vote". What do you think happens in Tower Hamlets and other heavily populated Muslim areas?

"This is not democracy in US/Uk" well it might not be perfect but it took centuries of judo Christian blood and sweat to create it; it's not for Muslims to fix it.

I agree. There are unpleasant side effeects - such as in the Netherlands, Italy and soon to be Germany - but if people want a far right government, they should have the right to vote for one in the expectation of getting one, however distasteful that is.

Here in the UK we're getting one by stealth. Rwanda, leaving the ECHR, cracking down on the freedom to protest, infiltrating the media (BBC) or trying to gag them by privatisatino (C4) - it's all happening right under our noses. And I haven't even started on the National Conservative movement, flinging antisemitic tropes like 'cultural Marxism' around. Well, I have now.

Papyrophile, European states with PR system are in my opinion more democratic than Uk and US where special interest groups decide on policy.

So true.

Out of interest @Hawa13, where does have real democracy? Is real democracy practised anywhere?

Last election we had Jewish Rabbi/ leaders urging others to not vote for labour because of Corbyn. Muslims are not sheep that follow whatever religious leaders say. We can make up our minds. I don't think UK and America have real democracy. I voted greens last week and come the general election will go green or independent. This two party dictatorship needs ending and if muslims are the catalyst to bring in real democracy then its a positive thing.

I agree. I don't think Labour needs to agree to these demands. They want to bully and intimidate Muslims into doing what they want, and many Muslims will be hoping for Labour to ignore them.Yes, other people will also feel intimidated, but mainly its Muslims, who are the main victims of Islamism and Islamist terrorism. It was Muslim children geing bullied and intimidated by that child at the Michaela School, and Muslim parents being intimidated outside the school, their children's education being disrupted. And Muslim women who suffer when men force them into piety and poverty.

@Dancingontheedge politicians do what benefits them. Where is the political gain in pandering to a tiny minority and thereby alienating swathes of your core vote? Last week made it clear that Labour doesn't need the hardcore Muslim vote to succeed, so this sudden idea that they'll support turning the UK into a Caliphate reeks of more political smear tactics to me. The evidence that they'll do this just isn't there.

However, if you want a party that suits someone with these views, there's always Reform.

Yes prioritising men over women just because religion is involved is incredibly harmful.

Yes I was talking about a different country! I think PP was agreeing that even in previously moderate places, more fundamentalist religion is being pushed.

All that has happened in reality is a tiny lobby group has drawn up a list of demands for Labour. Demands which Labour will ignore

You trust politicians to do the right thing? For Labour to make a decision and stand firm on…anything?

And that tiny lobby group…whether Far Right, Far Left, TRA, Islamic/Christian/Vegan…Eco Warriors. You shouldn’t dismiss tiny lobby groups, they grow and recruit.
Like not fixing that chip in your windscreen. May not be a problem. May explode in your face as you head round the M25 at 70mph.

@DramaLlamaBangBang we don't have ID cards here, so am assuming @pistonsaremachines is outside the UK? Wherever it is, it sounds pretty grim.

The first thing to remember is that this certainly won't be all muslim voters - more likely a noisy minority who (as with other religions) think they can use their minority status to dictate what others should do

Pandering to them wouldn't just upset the mainstream population; it would do the same to countless decent muslims, and if I can work that out I imagine Labour will too

Me too. I an South Asisn descent, born in South London. None of the many Muslim women and girls I grew up with would wear the Niqab. That was reserved for the occasions we went to Kensington and witnessed rich Arabs swanning round. The rest of the time the Asian women were dressed in bright colours, Salwar Kameez, the children in jeans and t shirts like everyone else. It was only 40 or so years ago. 'Progressive' useful idiots are complicit in oppressing people they pretend they want to champion and protect because they are being used by a tiny minority of fundamentalist men to oppress women and other members of the community who do not want to live like this. That is horrific if, in this country, people are going round checking if people are fasting for Ramadan!

What happened in Iran and the Lebanon was dreadful.

Extrapolating from those countries to claim Muslims will do the same in the UK, that this is inherent in Islam, that all Muslims will want this and that Labour will implement it is scaremongering by people with an agenda. And all based on a ludicrous demand from a tiny fringe group with 3k FB followers. 🙄

And Iran? I mean, that wasn't a civilised Western democracy, was it? The 1979 revolution just replaced one utterly foul regime with another.

Not that it matters. This thread has descended into 'the Muslims are going to take over' and paranoia. It's ridiculous.

It's not paranoia though. There's plenty of examples of where this has happened. Where are all the Christians and Jews in Turkey? In Pakistan?

Stop with the far right thing no one supports the far right in numbers in this country. This country is moderate unless you define far right differently.

One would like to hope things stay that way @TizerorFizz .

However, the ignorance of many over for example the Lebanese Civil/Religious war that destroyed Beirut and opened the door to Hezbollah, openly funded by the Mullahs in Iran makes me more than a bit sceptical of Muslim motive anywhere.

The majority here don’t need or want imported laws. We make law here. No one should go to another country and make demands that are unreasonable. I would never dream of going to Saudi Arabia and telling them what to do. This is a fair country and we have fair laws. They don’t need amending based on any religion and I don’t think the Bishops seek to do this. People can disagree with laws but not import ones based on religion alone.

It matters because there was a 15 year civil war between christians and muslims in lebanon, palestinian-lebanese christians were treated shamefully by the lebanese muslims including torture, murder, rape, mass imprionment as highlighted many, many times by amnesty and a plethora of world leaders and protesters, the christian population of lebanon plunged as a result, so to imply a total lack of knowledge of that horror to make a point on the internet, and then dismiss it by saying 'not that it matters', left a bad taste in my mouth.

Also adding religious context is different in different countries. In India for example Modi's government is hellbent on establishing a Hindu hegemony, with Hindu religious laws.

This isn't a problem in the UK because Hindus here don't tend to organised around religion. And it's really only India that's a major Hindu country. Nepal , Myanmar and Thailand are Hindu/Buddhist but don't hold much world influence.

Even for Sharia law, the proportion of countries that even have it are small compared to the countries that have a sizeable Muslim majority. Nigeria, Somalia etc all have lots of Muslims but no sharia law.

It's really people from certain countries and cultures that are advocating all this not 'all Muslims'.

And Iran? I mean, that wasn't a civilised Western democracy, was it? The 1979 revolution just replaced one utterly foul regime with another.

Not that it matters. This thread has descended into 'the Muslims are going to take over' and paranoia. It's ridiculous.

I disagree as they sit ex officio which is important. However many of them (there's only 26 but if you look at their dioceses) bring with them direct witness knowledge of inner city problems and others of rural poverty. Which I think is welcome.

If your point was more about whether practising Christians/Muslims/Hindus/whatever in the Commons are making decisions based partly on bias from their faith, then I think you would have more of a basis for debate. EG has Rishi Sunak ever brought forth legislation partly influenced by his Hindu beliefs? Or that Lib Dem leader who had an issue with gay people because of his Christian beliefs? now that is a problem because they are elected MPs with real democratic decision making power in the HoC. However it's probably hard to find people to stand for election who don't have 'beliefs' of some sort which influence them. But they should disclose them in their manifestos I think.

If British people don't know the composition of their Parliament then that's really on them. I think it's a citizen's duty to educate themselves on these things otherwise why would you even vote. Especially if your Parliament happens to be the beacon and standard for the rest of the world as it slowly transitioned to democracy throughout history.

Thank you for taking the time, it's been very interesting to debate with you. Yes we do agree on Muslim Vote!

Agreed!
I'm from a South East Asian Muslim majority country. None of our women used to even wear headscarves.
In 2024 there's growing pressure to be more religious, our Sharia police (supposed to be for religious rules e.f. regarding marriage and divorce only ) going around checking people's ID cards to see if they're fasting during Ramadan. It's insane.

There are groups fighting back, advocating for gender equality etc. but these fundamentalist groups are not only louder, they also seem to be surprisingly well funded. Where's the money coming from I wonder?

Like the praying issue in Katherine Birbalsingh's school, where the one fanatic pupil tried to bully her peers into praying at lunchtime.

I'm sorry it came across as a parallel as that's definitely not what I intended, nor what I think about it.

But I do still think many British people are unaware that bishops sit in the House of Lords, and I think it's interesting that that's the case. You previously said "Secondly their role is usually as a 'moral break' on some of the government's more outre ideas e.g. the Rwanda Bill" but in fact the lords spiritual have the same rights as other House of Lords members. They can take part in all business of the House, including tabling and asking questions to the government, leading or speaking in debates, scrutinising legislation, voting and serving on committees or all-party parliamentary groups. In my view that's a direct impact on democratic decision making by non-elected, religious personnel. However, I accept that we view this differently. We do agree that what the Muslim Vote is proposing is not the way forward, though!