Muslim vote (the group, not people generally)

I meant that my posting the whole of that paragraph rather than a sneakily edited version will make no difference to certain posters on this thread. The ones who believe that a Caliphate is "downloading" etc.

What do you mean, it will make no difference?

They do. Plus use everything they can to let women know they shouldn’t speak up.

Not sure how we got there but it’s sad to see.

Dramallamabangbang

I don't think that was what the PP said. They said they could be a catalyst in the UK.

So, where have Muslims been a catalyst for democracy in other countries?

Where has there ever been the idea or semblance of democracy? Let's just say we believe that terrorism is being funded, where was democracy even before this funded terrorism?

As PP said, Muslims who have tried to be catalysts for democracy in most of the Islamic world have been murdered or have had to escape ( many to the UK) to avoid being murdered, so how a tiny group of Muslims funded by the very people who have funded fundamentalist regimes all over the ME and fund terrorism the world over are going to be ' catalysts for democracy ' is some interesting mental gymnastics!

As we've seen, sections of the Left either love championing men over women or they are wilfully blind, whether or not religion is involved. It's as if all they need is a group that likes to intimidate and oppress women and they are all for it!

Yes. Non-theistic ideologies can be just as oppressive as theistic ones when co-opted and misused by authoritarians.

How will Muslims be the catalyst, what happens?

And is there a Muslim country you’d prefer?

'Judeo-Christian blood and sweat?' It seems that it's Judeo-Christian when you want to exclude Muslims. Not sure about the Judeo part during those centuries when the Jews were kicked out of England!

For that matter, plenty of people over the centuries have been burned, beheaded, slaughtered in battle, or at best disenfranchised and excluded from jobs for being the wrong kinds of Christian.

And let's not forget the centuries where Britain depended to quite a degree on the 'blood and sweat' of an Empire. which included plenty of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and other non-Christians.

Oh stop being melodramatic. No it's not because we want to exclude Muslims. It's just that they are relatively new to the west and centuries old traditions and history that evolved over time is what makes the west the west and east the east. We have our respective perspectives and sometimes they clash.

The british empire is a relatively recent event. The democracy you see in the west was forged before that and has continued to evolve. Up until recently, Britain (and other parts of the west were still predominantly judeo Christian tradition.

Would I be wrong if I said india was built by Hinduism etc? No so why take so much offence when we say it about Britain or the west?

And by the way, again double standards, Islam conquered all the Middle East (where did all other religious groups go?) and india for centuries not a couple of hundreds of years like Britain. Do you not think they beheaded and slaughtered their way round the world like Christians? And how are other non Muslims treated in Muslim countries, do they not have to pay extra tax, are their populations growing or declining? How many non Muslim get killed in Muslim country for alleged blasphemy?

Sky fairies? Let’s not forget good old communism for mass murder…

Yes everyone’s killed everyone for centuries.

Let’s all have a sky fairies amnesty and live peacefully ever after eh? Focus on things like climate change that are real

Yes, I do know. But the PP referred to 'centuries of Judeo-Christian blood and sweat.

Also LOL at Muslims bringing in democracy. Can you point to a single Muslim democracy that’s better than what we have here?
There isn’t a single Muslim run country that you could pay me to live in.

You do know it’s 2024, right?

“Muslims are not sheep that follow whatever religious leaders say.”
😂 literally followers of an organised religion! 😂

'Judeo-Christian blood and sweat?' It seems that it's Judeo-Christian when you want to exclude Muslims. Not sure about the Judeo part during those centuries when the Jews were kicked out of England!

For that matter, plenty of people over the centuries have been burned, beheaded, slaughtered in battle, or at best disenfranchised and excluded from jobs for being the wrong kinds of Christian.

And let's not forget the centuries where Britain depended to quite a degree on the 'blood and sweat' of an Empire. which included plenty of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and other non-Christians.

There is a differentce between someone saying 'I dont think yo should vote Labour because we think their leader is anti semitic, or at least sympathises with anti semites' and saying 'Do as we say or we will tell Muslims not to vote for you. The latter is a demand to a party to change policy to suit their interests. If Muslims are not sheep ( and I don't think they are either, and most wont listen, although Lutfer Rahman in Tower Hamlets...) why do they want Imams to be able to tell people how to vote?

Well, I don't like religious pressures on voters and politicians. regardless of the religion. But let's not pretend that it doesn't happen with Christian groups- not normally the Church of England leadership, but smaller hardline groups such as the Christian Institute and Christian Concern. Here is one of the Christian Institute's 'question cards' for candidates in the 2019 election; soon to be updated, no doubt:

question-card-2019_england.pdf (christian.org.uk)

And here is dear cuddly Ann Widdecombe, some years ago, when still a Tory, gloating, among other things, over a toxic Christian Right campaign that helped to defeat my MP in my seemingly liberal constituency in 2010.

Ann Widdecombe: A question of conscience | Conservative Home

For the most part, the UK is an increasingly secular country. There will not be the same sort of Christian Right influence on voting here, as there has recently been in the USA, or the same sort of Muslim Right influence on voting here, as there has recently been in Turkey. The main real danger here is perhaps if fundie Christians and fundie Muslims get together andcollaborate on religious-right issues.

It's really not an ideology to be proud of...

Why thank you!

Yes, Blut und Boden. Exactly that.

@Bicyclethief the phrase sounds a bit 'Blut und Boden' is all. And let's face it, the UK as we have it now was not just built by Judaeo-Christian blood and sweat. There were a lot of pagans of various flavours involved as well, and no doubt some non believers.

Is staying historic fact extreme? Please explain.

You are right, I should have said every citizen!

And that tiny lobby group…whether Far Right, Far Left, TRA,
Islamic/Christian/Vegan…Eco Warriors. You shouldn’t dismiss tiny lobby groups, they grow and recruit

So true - but it bears adding that they grow even faster if pandered to

It is for all citizens to fix it, @Bicyclethief, including Muslim citizens.

And "centuries of judo Christian blood and sweat"? Did you mean to sound so horrifyingly extremist?