To think Richard III clearly murdered the princes in the tower?

This. He had far more to gain.

I second this. The arguments are all there, and it’s a smashing read.

A proper modern examination of the bones in Westminster abbey would be interesting

I think they were exiled, makes more sense than any murder conspiracy, and their ‘keeper’ was bought off. Also exile was a massive thing back then. What would kids their age know about their own destiny if they were told otherwise and repeatedly kept in the dark?

Same. I'd had a dream about Richard and Edward, which I know sounds completely insane, but I had, and my mum recommended The Daughter of Time to me, and it's still one of my favourite books.

I know I must subconsciously have known how different Richard and Edward were from each other, but my dream surprised me in its apparent accuracy about their looks, is all I can say!

The Tey book is interesting but not ground breaking. The documentary mentioned upthread is I think the one associated with Langley 's book (her of the car park discovery and Richard fanatic). I watched it but thought there were a lot of suppositions and IFs going on.

I've studied this a fair bit and whilst it's true that R was villified by the Tudors its still highly unlikely that the constable of the tower would have allowed access to anyone other than on Richards orders. Additionally, the discovery that he DID have scoliosis puts the kybosh on the idea that the "crookback villain" thing was total nonsense.

I think his early life proves he was a loyal and capable soldier, dedicated to the good of the realm and may have justified removing his nephews (who he believed were illegitimate anyway) by allowing him to reign rather than a child that would have been disastrous, or worse, their Woodville relations reigning through him. The previous fifty years had been a divisive nightmare, led to the loss of most of the gains from Agincourt and a competent, experienced adult on the throne was the best move.

The Josephine Tey book is lovely, albeit fictional. If nothing else, you can scratch your head about patients smoking in a hospital ward.

I think I bought some of her other books in a bundle on Audible for not much money.

Thank you! Yes, it was. Most of the things she produced as 'startling new evidence' to Rob Rinder who was wide eyed and half convinced by it all (because he has little background knowledge) were things that were already known - and she hid, or was unaware of, the propaganda behind them.

She trotted out arguments that weren't new and that historians have refuted for years.

Oh goodness me I needed that giggle today, thank you! 🤩

Yes. I blame the Tudors. Richard was already king he didn't need to kill them.
(Philippa Gregory fan)

The Josephine Tey book isn't a novelisation of the past. It's a story of a detective on bed rest who is bored witless so someone gets him into researching history and solving it as a historical crime. The fictional bits are only the modern parts.

Brilliant book, by the way. It convinced me.

This, he could have staged anything.

Whilst I'm not an historian, it seems to me most likely that it was Colonel Mustard, with a candle stick, in the library.

I may be wrong, but I think there's certainly a strong case for it.

It would be very easy to prove with a DNA test on the bones found were the accounts of the murder ordered by Richard III says the murdered princes would be found

That programme was the biggest pile of crap. Completely failed to consider that just because a document was genuinely written in the correct time period, doesn’t mean its contents are reliable. Total guff.

There really wasn't any doubt about it. People love a good conspiracy theory, but the only logical and possible explanation is that Richard had them killed. They were a threat to him as a possible rallying point for Edward IVs supporters as long as they were alive.

And it really isn't credible to think that either Margaret Beaufort or Henry Tudor had them killed. It's very clear that neither of these boys were in the Tower after Bosworth, although their cousin Edward, Earl of Warwick certainly was.

Contemporary sources believed Richard killed them. It cost him support at Bosworth and indirectly caused his death. There was no benefit to him not producing them, if they were still alive, to refute all the rumours that were going around. No contemporary source ever accused Henry Tudor of killing them.

This is a much later 'conspiracy'. At the time it was very clear that the nobility of England, both Yorkist and Lancastrian believed that Richard had disposed of them.

The 'documentary' by Philippa Langley and Rob Rinder is not accurate in many ways. She is not an accredited historian and is a member of the Richard III society. A lot of the evidence she presented to Rob Rinder has no basis in fact. No serious Tudor historian accepts that this is anything other than wishful thinking with a lot of hypothesis that is wildly unlikely.

YABU because qualified historians, archaeologists and various experts have applied their minds to this question and there is no agreed definitive conclusion either way.

Margaret Beaufort and the Duke of Buckingham are my top suspects. Richard was already King and a popular one. Elizabeth Woodvilles marriage had been shown to be bigamous and the Princes removed from the succession. Richard had dismantled the Grey family power base which was new and hated so there was little, if not no, support for the Princes claim to the throne.

In terms of history a King dead on the battle field, a new King by right of Battle crowned is the Victor.

Would definitely recommend it and not written like Philippa Gregory crap at all

Definitely don't think they were smuggled away or even left the tower.

I thoroughly believe the bodies found are theirs and I hope King Charles gives permission for the DNA to be examined.

I watched the programme with judge rinder and still believe that they were murdered. 90% Richard 10% Margaret Beaufort.

There’s a church in Devon? that has adornments relating to one of the princes suggesting he lived out his life there. Given Henry VII’s treatment of Perkin Warbeck I think the actual answer is that no-one actually knows.

Margaret Beaufort - man acting on her behalf definitely

He was a very clever man. If he wanted them dead they would have Died Of Natural Causes and there would have been a funeral. A disappearance was the worst thing that could have happened and only worked against him. He wasn't stupid.

👆This.