Is your household contributing net tax ?

That’s not really the point. If those contributions were originally invested at 5% they would easily pay your pension now. (I’ve done the calculations!). They were in fact invested in hospitals and roads etc, which built the infrastructure which has given us a wealthier society. So indeed you have ‘paid for it’.

My household, 2 full time working adults, probably pay in excess of £8K tax/NI/Ctax and god knows how much VAT plus all the hidden extras with fuel, road tax, tax on interest, tax on insurance etc.

Out of that, I get my bins collected once a fortnight and have one a street light about 50 meters away.

I also have the knowledge that should I ever need the NHS, Police, Fire Service they are there and our military services and protecting us behind the scenes.

I agree with what you say, but as a previous small business owner in various different trades it is easy to say increase wages.

There needs to be a better way to differentiate between large and small businesses. When the minimum wage goes up the smaller businesses struggle to put prices up to compensate.

The large companies and multi nationals can raise the revenue via volume sales.

Would now be a good time to look again at employer NI contribution ( lower it for less than ten employees and increase it for over 50 employees.)

I often wonder with the likes of Amazon where the UK is a small part of their overall business. If the government said you must pay say full tax rate would they say ok we will not trade in the UK as they know the government would back down due to the amount of people they employ. I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of their lobby group meetings.

I don't have children and we're net contributors. I have no issue with those who need resources having them when they need them, or need the support to access them.

Increase wages then - increasing the incentive to work.

Giving everyone a wodge of cash (universal basic income) reduces the incentive to work.

I can't see how that basic income could possibly be set high enough for people unable to work so benefits would need administering as well - not saving on administration.

I don't really understand your list of costs.
What about healthcare usage, road usage, waste usage a hundred other publicly funded things?

I’m childfree and likely to remain that way unless I choose to go down the adoption route. I’m generally in good health and don’t use many nhs services, no regular prescriptions or appointments etc so I am pretty sure I pay far more in tax than I get back, although obviously that could change. I don’t mind as I am happy to live in a country with free healthcare/ education etc and with a robust welfare state. I would be happy for my tax to increase if it meant improving the NHS, education system or improving benefits for those who need them but I feel politicians are generally corrupt and don’t like knowing public taxes fund things like fraudulent MP expenses, military expenditure, bank bailouts, dodgy contracts and fracking.

If we're going to go down this road, how about the billions that smokers cost the NHS?

@Pollipops1 ' Private pensions are crap for most these days. I’m lucky to have a government one but it used to be amazing, unfortunately the scheme changed whilst I was at uni. I don’t think younger people are going to have better private pensions so therefore it’s ok to move out state pensions.'

What you don't seem to realise is that many baby boomers have no pension other than the state pension. Nothing at all. The 'gold-plated' pension is a myth for the majority of boomers.

Most companies didn't provide a pension. Company pension contributions weren't obligatory until 2018, so many smaller employers paid nothing at all. So those starting work today, contributing even 5% + 3% employer+ tax relief will be hugely better off.

Is your argument that other benefits should be uprated more, or that pensions should be uprated less? I think other benefits should be uprated more.

If you want to dismantle the welfare state still further, that is your look out, but I don't support the removal of the state pension for current pensioners or future pensioners.

Exactly this. Without bankers the shop worker would have no shelves or food to put on them 😂

No one is carrying the economy or society on their own.

This would be more helpful if we could also see what has happened to the income distribution over the same period.

So if the top earners are also earning a lot more (in relative terms) then it would mean something different to if they were earning the same or even less.

The wages of high earners have risen by a lot more than the wages of middle and low earners.

Old people don’t matter. They’re a drain on society. Once they’ve outlived their usefulness they should just be put down. 🙄

From the Institute of Fiscal Studies:

The top 10% of taxpayers paid 60% of all income tax in 2023–24, up from 35% in 1978–79. The share of income tax revenue contributed by the top 1% of taxpayers rose from 11% in 1978–79 to 29% in 2023–24.

If you set UBI at a decent amount so people aren't poor ( which I assume is the point ). How long before many people don't bother working?

Some will work of course as they are the ones working now to better themselves but once a few people in the street stop working it them becomes catching as evident by workless households and areas.

The way UBI systems work though is that those earning pay more tax so effectively it cancels out the value of the UBi. But that is hellishly complicated to administer particularly for those with fluctuating income.

It’s all irrelevant really. We can’t afford a state where the majority are net dependents. The rest of it is white noise. The IMF have raised serious concerns about it. The next government will have to address the issues that cause it. It’s that simple. To answer your op - yes by a long way.

Wrong. Other benefits aren't triple locked - so why should the state pension be?
Also, one could argue that there are many others who don't work and can never work like severely disabled people... They don't get a similar payment.
The final part of the argument is, of course, unlike your dramatic statement many pensioners are not 'dying on the street'. They're enjoying life, spending, going on cruises etc, the state pension isn't even necessary for them.

Personally if I was set for my retirement I wouldn't mind receiving a smaller amount of pension. Even though I didn't really need it. You know, just to acknowledge that I'd contributed and was getting something back.

In any case, we don't pay our own pensions. But that of the generation above us. Not sure where my pension would come from given the projected population decline and that even now, so many young people don't work anyway.

I'm definitely not 54😱

That's not how it works. It's cloud cuckoo land.

Family should have first responsibility even when deoendent disabled children become dependent adults. A civilised society will provide some support but the primary responsibility should be the parents. The same for partners and spouses. In sickness and in health...

Primary responsibility does sit with parents, or adult children (in the case of infirm parents. Have you tried to get any kind of support for people with disabilities? The burden absolutely rests with family, until they can do no more.

We can’t however, place that responsibility on family without recognising their capacity to earn and provide for themselves and their families is more often than not extremely compromised. That capacity may ebb and flow over the course but they can’t both care full time for a loved one and work full time - which is where the State does need to step in.

Too many people in wider society want to have their cake and eat it too - want families carrying the bulk of caring responsibilities and also grudge them benefits that enable them to do so.

I was actually being facetious. Sorry if you misunderstood my comment😊

I'm not wealthy but I am a net contributor. I don't have a problem with that at all, I may well be a net dependent when older due to pension/health care etc.

I benefit from a functioning society, and I want there to be more than a basic safety net for people who are not as lucky as me to have had a good education and a career now.