Is your household contributing net tax ?

There have been a few of these threads this week.

I think the criticisms of the benefits system paying out an equivalent of a £30,40,50k salary are misunderstood. It’s not about people seeing others as scrounging or undeserving.

Its about two things IMO:

• the ability of individuals to earn this kind of money themselves
• the cost of paying benefits at this level to the state

This is not the individuals fault - they are merely claiming what is available to them. But it’s a huge question re: what the state is doing, that they have created a structure in which working doesn’t leave you much better off than working part-time plus claiming benefits.

Most people on here seem to be struggling to some extent. Their housing costs are going up. Their childcare costs are crippling them. Having a second child off the cards. Food is increasingly expensive. Holidays unaffordable etc.

But they are also working 40+ hours a week (80+ hours for a couple) and sacrificing a lot of time / energy to try and do so. To know an alternative is doing 16 hours plus a raft of state support does raise the question, ‘what is the point?’.

So much of this, IMO comes down to the ridiculous cost of housing yourself. The state can’t avoid paying this - but has sold huge amounts of social housing an isn’t building more. It has to house people - but it’s ultimately crazy they might need to pay eg £1,400 (I think the figure on that thread) when for a working couple to pay that, it would basically be an entire salary.

I don’t think it’s about moralising - it’s about having a functional economy in which we support the poor but also actually have some additional lifestyle benefits as a result of working.

Because the sector creates enormous wealth for which they get a slice. Not saying that's 'good'.

Spend this afternoon with a calculator and do a few calculations and you will see why UBI wouldn't work.

Because the system they contributed to throughout their working life was based upon that.

They paid for the pensions of those older than them, someone else pays theirs.

If you want to tax wealth, make a sensible proposal.

Universal benefits are part of the welfare ecosystem. You will have seen that support for benefits in general has declined since CB became income-dependent. That was done deliberately - once you means test things they lose support - as the current government wanted to undermine the welfare state in general. Also cost more to administer.

Do you want good welfare or not? If so, don't progress further down the dismantling route.

Why does a banker earn more than a GP?

Exactly, so much ignorance on this thread already. As if people who claim UC are all jobless....🫡

@Vettrianofan I thought UBI had been tried in a number of places, was found not to benefit those countries as a whole, and was abandoned.

It's difficult to introduce something like UBI in a high inflationary environment. If it's going to be done it would have to be when inflation is under control. Also it's incredibly politically difficult to remove if it doesn't work well.

What kind of person takes something when they already have SO MUCH? How can they sit there and receive their £10 Christmas bonus from the DWP. What scroungers!

So funny that wealthy folk are quick to shut down any conversations around UBI🤣

They are frightened it might actually have a chance of helping the economy and making poorer people less poor. But we can't have that. No. Keep the poor in their place.

I am a net contributor as far as I can tell.

Long-term single mum from a free school meals family
Salary - £60k ish
Child in independent school (with scholarship)
Paid higher rate tax for 30 years
One birth, one other op, treatment for BC.
Never been on benefits
Only been to A&E twice I can remember
I have a degree from a poly.
Started work at 13
Have always worked full time,
Have 43 years NI paid.

I don't begrudge a penny to the disabled, to the NHS, to primary/secondary education. I'm probably the 'squeezed middle' but I don't mind. I don't want children going hungry or pensioners dying of cold. Contribution is an essential part of a decent society.

I do mind those claiming 'anxiety' is an illness. Do they imagine being made redundant 7 times (in 38 years) with no safety net wasn't anxiety-inducing? Being made redundant again at 58 (covid) and fighting for months to get back into a decent job wasn't a struggle? Being diagnosed with BC as a lone mum didn't make me ill with worry? Keeping working while undergoing chemo didn't cause me issues?

I don't respect people who give up so easily. Who feel they are entitled to live off others. Of the people who waste hundreds every month and then say they can't afford a deposit. Who get drunk, fall down stairs and then complain about the wait in A&E. Who take drugs and then wonder why they have mental health issues.

Personal responsibility is also essential for a decent society and a lot of people seem to forget that.

You do realise that people on benefits can't choose to not work any more? You show your ignorance of the current UC situation. Most people who receive UC are like us. Work but on low wages.

It's about entitlement, not because they need the £400.

I do agree that if the super rich no longer received £400pm they would ensure that it was dismantled for everyone. Why does a multimillionaire want £400pm though?

Agreed.

I thought the trials of UBI had been fairly successful? There is cultural resistance to the concept.

They cost less than benefits so should not lead to higher taxation.

We're going to have to look at this once automation really kicks in, we will have to figure out how to tax robots and distribute the money.

@Pingufireengine governments like projects, especially 'shiny' ones. They are easily persuaded by glamorous projects. They want to be associated with the glamour, be photographed next to it. This means they think less critically about glamorous projects.

An awful lot of our politicians are not well educated or experienced in practical matters. They are easily bamboozled by sponsors of expensive projects using any sort of technical language. They don't want to look stupid so don't ask questions.

Social care, mental health services, preventative medicine all lack glamour. They also lack a definable outcome. They cost but the savings are seen at a societal level.

Is the economy working brilliantly at present is it?🤔

UBI might not have worked well elsewhere doesn't mean it couldn't work well here in the UK.

It would give those a chance to start up businesses or study without worrying about paying bills at the same time. Would give more flexibility and cut out all the beurocracy with the benefits system. Would save a fortune.

choose

You've just demonstrated what you really think.

We also all starve if noone was growing and transporting the food as well.

If you dismantle the pension system, do you think that will benefit lower income people?

Please try not to be naive. What you propose would destroy the political consensus around pensions which would result in all pensions being removed.

Look at who votes in elections.

I mean UBI has been disastrous everywhere it has been trialled, but yes, feel free to send our country further down the plug hole.

Why would any high earning person want to pay much more in tax to fund many more people to choose not to work?

It's the supermarket worker who deserves to be paid more. We would all starve if the shelves weren't constantly restocked. A massive shake up of the economy is needed.

UBI needs to be brought in. I am a huge fan of UBI and know it would really help.

Are they paid more than shop workers? Do they demonstrate a sense of entitlement and superiority for having an admin role?

Do you get a medal if you do contribute?