I am surprised at the level of Islamophobia on Mumsnet

Thank you @Brefugee not at all. I would rather someone ask than assume.

I mean there's different levels of 'covered' too. We cover as we see fit and what we personally deem appropriate. For example I have a friend who won't wear jeans or trousers. Only skirts or dresses. Whereas I wear skirts, dresses, trousers and jeans etc.

There isn't a one size fits all that for some reason people think there is and get so angry about. This isn't aimed at you BTW.

I mean if people spent more time actually paying attention to what they see muslim women wear rather than getting angry about it. They would see we all dress in different ways. I mean you can look at some Jewish communities and they have almost like a uniformed way of dressing and many Jewish women wear wigs. Yet no one seems to be in uproar about it..and they shouldn't be in uproar either. Its their choice to wear that.

It's all just respect and at the end of the day.

If a lady was to walk In front of me in a bikini, I literally have no opinion on it at all. Other than I might think it has a nice pattern or something. There's this thing where we are perceived to be judging those who don't cover. And ofcourse there are some. But we are judged all the time too. But actually we are told we aren't allowed to judge others. Its not for us to do.

Re the lady with niqab. I couldn't comment. It's not very common in turkey until recently when a lot of Syrian refugees arrived. Traditionally many turks don't wear it. But it's become quite common there now. My dh is from turkey

i have to admit to a kind of fascination with how difficult it seems wearing a niquab. I was at a hotel in Istanbul and there were all sorts of clothing being worn nobody batted an eyelid. But i was sitting opposite a woman at breakfast (different tables but in my line of vision). Outside by the pool was an omlette statin - hands down best omlettes i've ever had - and a this woman was fully veiled, but the face covering was kind of like a surgical mask but longer and not tied from the bottom two corners. and she had to lift the mask and fork in her food for every bite. It just looked awkward. But I'm guessing she was fine with it, she was alone and nobody was bothering her.

I'm just about post-menopausal now, but i did wonder how i'd handle a hot flash if i couldn't just unbutton my coat and tug at my neckline to get air in. Horses for courses i guess.

thank you @Springchickenonion it's kind of you to explain it like that because so often in these discussions it can feel as though one person (me) is asking the other (you) to do all the work. But i also think it's important to get personal input.

Which thread was that then?

@Brefugee and yes! I think we would get along well! I would love to learn to sew. I can dona running stich and buttons. 🤣

I wouldn't be a good house wife at all. I can cook though!

Also, I haven't seen anything from you to suggest islamaphobia. Asking questions is encouraged in all aspects of life.

I got called a gullible idiot on another thread for wearing a scarf. So what do I know!

of course you can. You can ask the poster to explain what they mean because from your pov it's islamaphobic. Of course you can only do that if you feel safe to do so. It needn't be goady or accusatory.

That's how it is supposed to work with the ageism which is nearly never (but not never) deleted when reported.

Examples of far right ideology you've seen?

And which of these extreme right views have been left up (if they exist)?

Do words even have meanings anymore?

@Brefugee I just want to say thank you as you are the person to actually listen to what I'm saying and have respected my opinion without trying to argue. So thank you. I appreciate that.

So I suppose it depends on what way you look at it. Men will say it's to protect them from lust. But men are also told to lower their gaze. So for me, hijab to protect them is a 50/50 argument alongside women to feel safer

From personal experience in wearing and not wearing the hijab. I feel more repscted by men and taken more seriously wearing it. There is an automatic respect of actually listening to my words rather than being mansplained etc. I obviously realise this is not all men. But its a good majority.

So there are 2 aspects. I am less likely to be cat called etc wearing it. And I would feel safer out and about in evening.

I'm not saying men don't have self control. Because they do and should. And that's not why I wear the hijab. I wear it as I want to be heard with my voice only. If that makes sense? Lots of posters will argue with me and say that's ridiculous and they don't feel that way without a scarf. But until you have tried with and without can you really say that?

There's also the element of not worrying about what you look like. So between women for example. And again, I know its not all women. But no jealousy over who's up to date with their hair and makeup etc
This is a small thing but it always crosses my mind that I care less now what people think or view of me than I did before. Its quite freeing.

Regarding niqab. I personally don't like it. It's not for me. However, I have a good friend who wears it. She is born Muslim. Her mum.and other female members do not wear it and she is not married. She works and chooses to.wear it and is happy to do so.

So I guess, again everyone's reason is unique to each person.

Hijab/niqab is a deeply personal choice.

No one should be forced to wear it or not wear it.

I agree with this.
I've been here ages, and have noticed a far right rise the past few years but it's until recently been bubbling under the surface and laughed at if you say there is.
It's becoming more out in the open, so I'm sadly not surprised at all.
YANBU at all OP

You might want to look into Byline Times before posting them as a source.
Why?
Because they're funded by radical antisemite and conspiracy theorist Eric Li.

https://order-order.com/tag/byline/page/2/

I’ve reported a few and MN have deleted them. MN send you an email thanking you for the report and confirming deletion.

If they don’t agree, they say they’re looking at it, which is code for they’re not deleting it.

Unfortunately you cant say anything on the thread or risk a ban but you can and I do report. Some are removed but not all, often because they are quite subtle.
I did report a whole thread this morning though but its still there so MN must have felt it was ok.
I tend to report anything I feel is suss and let MN decide

Out of intrerest: when you see Islamophobic posts do you report them? is there an answer or do you hear nothing back? do you bring it up in the thread too? (we have been told to do that when we see ageist claptrap so i wondered if MN treat it the same)

Yes, I have noticed the same. Thank you for writing this

The purpose of covering up, within religion is more as a protective aspect. Not because it just tells us to. There is a reason for it. To protect yourself from unwanted attention.

sorry, missed this bit. Is that universally true? I have a friend who is devoutely muslim (he has a prayer mat at work, and is observant in many other ways). he is lovely and we do have philosophical discussions about religion and other aspects of our lives. But his explanation for modest dress (he doesn't mention head covering, his wife doesn't wear a hijab but i think his sister does, but their mother doesn't either) is that the sight of women's bodies can evoke unpure thoughts in men, and it is to protect the men. Which is where my objection really kicks in (and it is the same with having sexual thoughts about kids in shorts) - those men need to work on themselves, not insist people dress differently.

Wearing a hijab as a shield? That is something i can completely understand.

What I was trying to say was, we get told we shouldn't be covering. But that's just as oppressive as saying someone should be covering

cannot disagree with you there either, i think we'd get along in RL (I could teach you to sew ;) )

What about the full niquab (sp?) do you think that any woman chooses that under any circumstance? I don't think it's an Islamophobic reaction but whenever i see a fully covered woman in the UK it takes me back. And it makes me angry. It is a "me thing" i guess, but i cannot wrap my head around choosing to do that on a flipping hot day. Especially the ones i see where one (often gloved) hand is occupied keeping the veil in place, so they only have one hand free. For me that is a very visible and shocking reminder of the opression of women (even if they choose it for themselves). I truly mean no insult here, but it is something that just screams oppression at me.

Perhaps i do have some elements of Islamophobia in me. It is usually (solely) related to the opression (internalised or not) of women.

also then have to face God which may or may not bother them).

Yes, which is why I said ‘But if they don’t believe in God then how are they affected?’

Convenient that you deleted that bit from my post you quoted 🙄

And no, the Qu’ran does not say the punishment for apostasy is death. There is no corporal punishment stated for apostasy.

@toomanyy
*False, false. The Quran makes no mention of forcing anyone to return to Islam or any corporal punishment.

Those who leave Islam will have to explain to God.*

The punishment for apostasy is death (and people will also then have to face God which may or may not bother them).

@Brefugee completely agree with you. Unfortuantly I'm rubbish at sewing!

And you are perfectly entitled to wear what you want to wear. I don't dispute that. My comments where more aimed at the previous posters who felt sorry for women in hijab etc without thinking we choose to wear it. Just as you choose to wear what you want to wear.

The purpose of covering up, within religion is more as a protective aspect. Not because it just tells us to. There is a reason for it. To protect yourself from unwanted attention. Again, this is a choice, and it isn't to be Inflicted in such an extreme on young children.

What I was trying to say was, we get told we shouldn't be covering. But that's just as oppressive as saying someone should be covering

We should all just respect what others want to wear and not comment on it.

I just did a quick search of boys pink shorts and loads came up - they have them at Next, Sainsbury's, JD Sports, John Lewis, Benetton, Mountain Warehouse etc. They're all long pink shorts and would be fine for a girl. I think these days there's a lot more cross over in boys/girls clothes - plenty of pink clothes for boys and less girly clothes for girls.
Yes I absolutely agree with your point about supporting women to wear what they choose whether it be a mini skirt or a hijab. My friend chose to wear a hijab even though none of the other women in her family do and her husband didn't want her to. She said it was her way of expressing her faith and made her feel closer to God.

also @Springchickenonion i saw your next post. I am with you on girls clothes. But the way to change that is not to buy them and to contact the places that sell/manufacture them.

I am going to take a punt that if someone wanted to set up a clothing line for girls that covered up more but still fitted and wasn't sexualised in any way, and for boys that had more variety of colour (and i specify boys and girls because they are built differently) based around fit, and actual size rather than "boys age 6" and "girls age 6" they could, with clever marketing, make a lot of money.

I'd back a campaign to de sexualise girls clothes, but not because of religious requirements/requests (i wouldn't back that if there was a whiff of religious influence) if someone started one.

Its almost as if The Tories are panicking ahead of the local elections and are looking for a "dead cat" to distract people with

thanks for coming back. I see where you're coming from but it is 2 separate issues.

FWIW i bought clothes from whichever section i or my DDs liked when they were growing up. The fit of shorts was A Thing for me, but they wanted "girl" colours (or just colours, poor boys stuck with beige and khaki or blue) so i made them myself.

But. At a pool or wearing regular clothing - even if the shorts are very short: anyone looking or thinking about children in a sexualised way have a "them" problem that is not for society to oblige. If i want to wear a strappy top then i will wear one. And no amount of wailing or gnashing of teeth by ANYONE (least of all religious based wailing) will change my mind. I wear situational appropriate clothing where necessary (church etc) but nobody - least of all someone of a religion i have no truck with (all religions, fwiw) will tell me that i should cover me or my young daughters up because it gives them "thoughts". They can stay in and shut the blinds if they don't want to see what is perfectly normal (especially in northern European countries where we have so little sun)

But again - i agree that young girls clothing is a problem. But it isn't because of religion

Of course I do.
Your view is very black and white. Pro-Palestinians marches=mobs. Pro Israeli marches= not a bad behaviour to be seen.
I am able to acknowledge that there will be "bad faith" protesters in either camp. Are you? The link below is just one example of what I mean by "bad faith".
'Gideon Falter Came to a Pro-Palestine Demo Looking to Provoke – And the Media Gave him What He Wanted' – Byline Times
Do you classify this demonstration as a mob?
Israelis stage largest protest since war began to increase pressure on Netanyahu | AP News

Given the reports in the press over the weekend around the scale of Tory party staffers actively stirring up this sort of sentiment on social media I think it’s pretty likely that they have a presence around here. It’ll only increase as we get towards the general election.

(yes, other parties may do the same, we don’t know but we do know that the Tories are)