"Migrants going to Ireland," states Rishi Sunak PM

To put it another way two countries could have the best relationship ever in a kind of I’ll help you here if you do there in a non binding way, but it doesn’t mean you’d see an agreement for a large number of returns

Because countries are not in the habit of agreeing to that

It’s a bit like agreeing with your neighbour you’ll offer a pot of sugar when needed but if they ask to move in or whatever scaled up version it’s a no because it’s too far off the mutual understanding

I don’t think it’s as much about a relationship as the legal underpinning of what’s going on

And as much as Ireland don’t want extra migrants there is not much that can be done in terms of returns, the agreement doesn’t mean there is even casually

I would like to hope that the average Irish and UK citizen would have a good relationship. Unfortunately in recent years the UK goverment have done everything they can to ensure that the two govermebts do not.

As much as the UK government decides to isolate themselves they will find that they actually do need to talk to their neighbours. Coming to talks with such a negative mindset will not do them any favours.

And you will find that Ireland is part of the EU so by talking to the EU they are talking to Ireland!!

Yes. When I say it was not a good story, I mean it was not the optic that it might have been, because what it has actually done is expose how very much of the CTA is about goodwill, and the foolishness of pretending otherwise

Given that Italy, Germany, Austria and Denmark are all looking at processing migrants in a third country, and preparing laws and processes to enable it, I think this story has a way to run yet.

Unfortunately I do not think you have actually read my posts. Please do not put words in my mouth which I have not said.

I have been very careful to state that it is UK GOVERNMENT policy which has negatively affected Ireland, now, during Brexit and for generations. I have been very careful not to tarnish all British with the same brush. I have said many times that I know all British do not support their government, Brexit etc. I have been very careful to do this as I am well aware that it is the case.

This is not a deflection on Irelands immigration policy. Some people on this thread seem to think that this is the first time Ireland have had to deal with immigration. This is so far from the truth and Ireland have been dealing with immigration for years. Irish society is as multicultural as England or Wales.
The issue here is that through the unethical Rwanda policy the UK are not willing to take their fair share of immigrants and are leaving Ireland to clean up their mess. Rather than trying to cooperate with Ireland there have been cancelled meetings and suggestions that all the UK immigrants should be sent to camps on the NI border!

Numerous British people in certain UK media and in this thread are getting very snippy that Ireland would dare stand up for itself ( on this occasion and during Brexit). There is a sense that Ireland should just sit back and accept whatever the UK throws at it. I will say again that I know this is not the feeling of all British people.

If an Eu country can return to the U.K. the U.K. should be able to return to an Eu country. This will be interesting to watch play out as France definitely will not want each boat load returned to them.

It would be stupid of the U.K. to agree a deal or a law or whatever that didn’t do that though, will the Eu agree to sure return or will the Eu try and make an example of the U.K. for leaving by trying to pressure or insist that Ireland can return but we cannot or will they throw Ireland under the bus to protect its land linked countries. Who knows.

Okay, for the sake of everybody on here, generally, arrangements mean that two parties indicate they shall share or cooperate on a particular requirement. How particular depends on how it's drafted. But the vague it is, the more difficult the situation to say one party is not doing something they should.

Now how one party or the other does this is up to them. You can't demand it, you can't insist on how's it's done, and it is not a legal obligation.

And so whoever briefed Simon Harris on this needs to be told to brush up on international law, and remember that an arrangement to cooperate on matters is very much in the eye of one party and the finger wagging was probably the stupidest thing that could have been done here.

And I note all the coverage on that has disappeared. So I think it's fair to say that someone who thought this was a good story has got it quite wrong.

The police get attacked and flares thrown, there is footage. No need to get too hands on when a knife to the boat is a quick solution.

The legislation is to correct an issue wrt safe and the U.K.

The conditions of return are going to need more substance than that, no country would willingly put themselves in line for mass deportation unless a proper alternative processing agreement

So yes it depends on the actual wording

That is true. Everyone is in agreement- it’s not legally binding and is merely an arrangement.

The CTA is an understanding between the UK and Ireland. It is not an international treaty. Simon Harris talking about it as if it is, as if the UK and Ireland have a good relationship is wrong.

He approached the UK as if they may be reasonable and honorable, obviously after Brexit we all know that this isn't the case given the appetite the UK had to break International Law and the disregard they had for the Good Friday agreement which threatened peace for their own citizens. I don't think it would be in our countries best interest to approach the UK government like they are thick buffoons though.
If you know someone is going to say no anyway looking like the reasonable one while the other looks unreliable is always the best way, Ireland doesn't wish to isolate itself on the world stage, we know the value of good International relations and it shows in our large budget surplus.

What is holding what up? Obviously the emergency legislation will do nothing as the UK have said that they aren’t upholding the arrangement.

They apparently can’t share the wording for security. But apparently it a reciprocal agreement whereby people who have claimed/a failed claim for asylum on one side can return to the other side. Westminster don’t seem to be denying it’s existence though.

Arrangements. Not agreement. Quite a big difference in law

Yes it’s what’s holding it up hence the emergency legislation

What is it? Has anyone seen a version of the wording?

I’d like to see what the agreement looks like that a country thinks it can return asylum seekers en masse

gave not ‘have’.

What a collaborative outlook you have. I have a reason for the ignorance bit of sweeping generalisation to state that ‘most’ of us don’t have an understanding of our borders.

I don’t think they believe an agreement “kicks in” . Of course nobody thinks saying a county is safe makes an agreement. The existence of an operational agreement has been acknowledged by both sides. The UK are not upholding it because it is not legally binding.

I think the point is that Brexit is done. It would be a bit foolish to imagine that the links between Britain and ROI would improve. Obviously this mess shows quickly it will get worse.

My bet is, as you can see already, that the CTA will be nibbled away by the fact that the UK and Ireland are not both in the EU. The UK is already saying in effect that the EU is who really has power over borders. And of course that is their direct experience when the EU came in to back up Ireland on GFA (another bilateral agreement between the UK and Ireland). That was a strong message the UK received and so there is a strong element of naivety to imagine on something like the CTA which is far below that in terms of commitment, that the UK would not conclude that the real power is the EU.

London is a perceptibly less Irish city than it was even ten years ago. Then it would have been common to have Irish neighbours or colleagues. Now? My new neighbours and colleagues are from India or have strong family links there. The change is fast.

I think Ireland are changing some legal wording around safe for the U.K. in the belief an agreement kicks in

I’m not sure if talk of an agreement is to divert their electorate so they can say see they won’t uphold it. But they do need the U.K. to say ok, which they won’t

In any case any claim there’s extra to the CTA will need to be evidenced.

Merely declaring a country safe does not mean there’s an agreement, otherwise we could return to France

Yeah what’s with the Irish bashing?

Was the UK a fig leaf for Ireland in the EU - I don’t know if it was. Sure back in 2008 we were going to the EU with our begging bowl. I wouldn’t personally view the UK like that.

My concern is that it won't stop people risking the channel crossing. If migrants want to get to Ireland, they still need to risk the channel to get to England, before then travelling on to Northern Ireland before walking across the border.

Other refugees come on planes and apply on the airport. I think Ireland are concerned that there will be an increased number of people who either have a failed or active asylum claim in the UK, who will now flee to Ireland to avoid Rwanda or deportation.

it won’t stop the channel crossings and Ireland will continue to get asylum claims whether they come through Northern Ireland or not. As long as there is war and poverty, people will flee and look for a better life elsewhere.

Your comments on pitying the UK come across as a bit contemptuous and actually demonstrating a lack of understanding of British politics with it as many Brits especially in the south east of England did not want or vote for Brexit, it was almost half of Brits, it was so marginal and therefore there is not this provincial outlook en masse that you allude to when you speak generally of the UK’s position. It seems that it is deflection from the fact that Ireland are now being tested on their approach to immigration in this form.

Indications are that the EU as a whole is finally considering a faster moving process to address migrant flow.

What are you thinking of, in terms of what they’ll do?

@Evanna13 it makes good sense to the UK. It says, we would prefer to speak to the EU because they have the power to affect these matters and Ireland doesn't. That was the clear message during Brexit and after to establish the WIndsor Framework. Does that mean the UK likes the EU? No. But they want to talk to the power that really operates.

The CTA is an understanding between the UK and Ireland. It is not an international treaty. Simon Harris talking about it as if it is, as if the UK and Ireland have a good relationship is wrong. They don't, do they? And why did he do it? I mean it's the diplomatic equivalent on stepping on a rake and being hit in the face.

If the Irish govt is so concerned that they are rushing laws through , then I believe it's happening.

And the logic is that both Ireland and the UK should be able to 'return migrants to the last safe country' or neither Ireland nor the UK can. Indications are that the EU as a whole is finally considering a faster moving process to address migrant flow. About time.

My concern is that it won't stop people risking the channel crossing. If migrants want to get to Ireland, they still need to risk the channel to get to England, before then travelling on to Northern Ireland before walking across the border.