"Migrants going to Ireland," states Rishi Sunak PM

I don’t see why it won’t be used, it’s clear reform are building and they’ve spent two years getting it through.

The problem Labour will have imo is how to not be a huge attraction to traffickers once they get rid of deterrents whatever they are and as other countries harden their borders.

I think any claim gangs can be smashed are wild and I’m not sure how such flimsy writing and policy is there

I think you cannot assume a reverse but probably what happens is a tale as old as time. The legislation is not used. And active repeal does not occur.

The legislation is widely predicted not to work; it seems unlikely. Sunak is apparently making an effort to use it.

What is more interesting is that the legislation proscribed asylum claims made by those entering by boat. If there is an an alternative lawful route for asylum, you will likely find that part will remain as law. That is my best guess based on what Labour have said so far.

Rwanda is such an extreme policy that I think there is quite a lot of room to do something else. But politically, Keir Starmer would lack all sense ri make this first on his list of things to do if he wins an election. It has destroyed Rishi Sunak (who didn't even agree with it originally) and the lesson is clear on that one!

I gotta say if Starmer does reverse I predicted all this about two years ago so all that flack

Then people get there ages after

Annoying 😂

I can only do about two years after that it could go anywhere

@CoalHouseDoor - I’m just not sure this concern about Muslim men is rooted in reality. Look at the numbers for a start. 100,000 refugees are from Ukraine and a tiny 20,000 are from various other countries. Most Muslim men are here under a visa system: and idea that there is an invasion or an influx of men who want to attack women is simply not true. Secondly - There hasn’t been a link between the arrival of refugees and crime here.

I agree with you - I don’t think we should dismiss people’s concerns as racist; but the fallacies that are circulating about refugees do come from a place of racism and in particular Islamophobia. We should be careful to be factual.

@bombastix excellent article.

Jennifer O'Connell writes well about this situation in the Irish Times yesterday. The only thing is that the moral imperative she suggests is going to be tested like never before in terms of costs and political management.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/05/04/we-shouldnt-import-broken-british-rhetoric-about-migration/

To add the EU is very slow moving, it’s taken years to get to the new policy position so I’m not sure what a swing to the right will do in a short timeframe

If US gets more hardline and Starmer reverses we will be the most attractive end point for trafficking, I’m not sure people realise what marketing and funds they have at their disposal

Finlesswonder · Today 09:21
The bottom line is we don't owe anyone anything, hence the rise of the far right across Europe

Finless, you said upthread ‘As a nation of emigrants, Ireland can and should take more immigrants.’
Your recent comment sounds contradictory but maybe I’m misunderstanding.

Interesting take on the reverse

Aus Labor did not for obvious reasons, the Liberals are also more likely to introduce a tough law but Labor were not mad enough to scrap it.

Apparently the agreement was made when the flow was in the other direction, no returns were made though and I’m not sure how they can with such an open border. That flow has now reversed.

If the deterrent does work then I suppose Ireland will see a slow down. Whether Starmer sticks to scrapping it or not I guess we’ll see.

Tbh if Rwanda is a deterrent then logic might suggest that eventually the flow of boats into the U.K. will stop and any associated flow into Ireland would also stop.

What I notice is that, entirely predicatably, Labour will not give a timetable to scrap it when in office. That might suggest that they will find it useful to keep for themselves. Politics is a cynical game and I would not be thinking there will be a swift change post an election in the U.K. Labour will be less trolling of Irish politics but since they are sticking with Brexit I don't think you will get some immediate return to being helpful. The domestic position in the U.K. won't have changed that much in six months if at all.

Thing is, how do you stop the illegal traffickers/smugglers? You don’t. They see a market for this so they’re exploiting it.

You seriously think the illegal traffickers and smugglers will stop because the UK and other countries ask them nicely to stop?

Good point. To clarify, I’m especially
concerned about men from a Muslim
culture who have specific attitudes towards women. And ‘bad’ (your word) is a perspective I hold on the grounds of being a woman who revels and has thrived in an equal culture. I do not want to be exposed to it and the current way means I, and many others are. And we must have a voice to say this makes us afraid.

And of course you are right that UK and Irish men are also capable of criminal sexism. I would argue though that those attitudes have changed seismically over the recent past and that society influences toxic masculinity for the better (even though we need to legislate this October, a whole other discussion).

Legal immigration, in my experience, implies a willingness to accept and respect the cultural norms of that country. Often legal
immigrants are accompanied at some point by spouses and/or children, which has a settling effect.

Legal immigration can sadly be as exploitative; again, another discussion. As is the moral implications of inviting those educated and trained by poorer countries to move to Europe and work here. But this thread is about illegal immigration.

Many discussions to be had. But not if we assume racism to be the driver and shut down debate. Because we know how that ends. And the rise of the far right across Europe is no coincidence.

The flow of people tends to go towards the EU, UK and US. It would also go to Aus but they are hardline.

The EU has June elections, the US we’ll see what happens and that leaves the U.K.

Whoever is the most attractive to trafficking networks is the most marketed, and the financial backing is huge. It looks like it could be us after the GE, I cannot see any way someone can eradicate networks, especially if they view them as ‘people smugglers’ they can ‘smash’

We’re not up against men with sticks on beaches, they are three layers down from the untouchable financed networks.

male economic migrants from a variety of countries

So are all men from “a variety of other counties “ bad in comparison to men from the UK and Ireland ? Or is it just the Muslim men you are worried about?

what about legal immigration- do you think all the healthcare staff should return to “a country where their cultural norms are shared”

I think the EU will see the shift before we will, going by the June predictions.

What that means for the U.K. I guess we’ll find out

I know. But we still need to have them, as gently but insistently as possible. And actually, in Sweden it’s only recently they’ve started having a conversation.

The bottom line is we don't owe anyone anything, hence the rise of the far right across Europe. I think the idea now is people don't really care whether accusations of racism are flung around, or whether it's even actually racist. These are our countries, and we don't have to do anything we don't want in terms of letting people in

I don’t want to derail the thread but I do think these wider discussions need to be had because I refute the idea that objection to mass illegal immigration is ‘rooted in racism,’ either in the UK or ROI.

I’ve lived in many countries in my life and in my experience these two countries are exceptionally liberal, open-hearted and generally very welcoming to strangers, especially on an individual level.

We would not, for example, in 2024, set about a woman with sticks for not dressing in a conformist manner.

The issue, I believe, is the mass importation of young men whose beliefs differ so radically to our liberal, pluralist and equal society. (Equality enshrined in law, at least.)

One of the many reasons I have chosen to live here is that I can walk down the street without fear of physical attack on religious grounds.

I feel desperately worried for women, like the one I quoted initially, who was attacked as a racist for expressing fear of walking past catcalling sexually aggressive groups of strange men in a village she’d lived safely all her life.

It’s the same across Europe and pretending the problem is the so-called ‘racism’ of indigenous women, will not end well.

The Finnish study quoted a policewoman who’d worked with male economic migrants from a variety of countries in a language capacity who reported that the group with which she’d worked for a year still firmly believed Finnish women were easy and good for one thing only and they would only consider marrying women of their own background.

Leaving aside whether that constitutes ‘racism,’ these deeply held beliefs arrive daily on our shores and go unchecked and unchallenged.

I entirely understand that we all have deep rooted cultural beliefs and that moving around the world, for whatever reason, we bring them with us. I don’t see assimilation happening in this case. I’d love to be proved wrong on this because I love the welcoming and humorous nature of these two countries and it would be a tragedy if were spoiled.

There are countries where these young men would be at home and where their cultural
norms are shared. Not to mention extensive resources currently being deployed to attract tourism. Plenty of jobs available. Pressure could be brought to bear to give them a start in a place where the culture clash would be less problematic.

They arrive without fingerprints? If you claim asylum on arrival to Ireland you are fingerprinted. Yes some do arrive without papers or on false documentation… there are hardly any legal routes to asylum then people seek illegal means to arrive here (or anywhere) and then claim asylum and their claim is accessed.

We could help women & children by opening up more legal routes to claim asylum in Europe.

Asylum seekers are not illegal - they claim asylum on entering which is legal. illegal immigrants live under the radar - they are undocumented and it would be tricky to do a study on them - but I’m here for learning if you have a link.

I do think these ideas are rooted in racism. But I agree that people who believe complete myths about asylum seekers aren’t necessarily racist. The words used by some - “unvetted, military aged males”. “Influx” “invasion” are really scary and people believe them. We should have a sensible fact-based discussion about asylum seekers, immigration and illegal immigration. How they differ and what happens when people arrive. I’m not saying that the system is perfect - it is absolutely not but the amount of misinformation in the media and in comments section is eye opening.

Lots of people believing that people get “own door” accommodation on arrival in Ireland and free cars! Like complete nonsense.

I couldn't agree with you more.

But when England or France do it its called racism, when Ireland or Sweden do it its called "having an open conversation".

Many arrive, as I’m sure you’re aware, without documentation and sometimes even fingerprints.

Any concern is rooted in a perfectly understandable concern at an uncontrolled arrival of large numbers of men (from a culture I know very well) with very different ideas about the place and role of women in society.

Knee-jerk dismissal of such worries as ‘racism’ does nothing to help anyone. We need adult conversations about why it’s happening, how to tackle the shocking human traffic chains, the smugglers who are profiting like kings and the clash of cultures.

Finland did some depressing work around ten years ago showing that there was no appetite for assimilation from
illegal immigrants or asylum seekers or however you wish to frame it.

It’s a ticking time bomb. We should be asking where are the women and children and how can we help them.

@Evanna13 thanks.

I can see how you read it that way if you havn't read the full thread but here the poster is talking about returning the immigrants.

Well that’s up to Ireland to decide, the 80% headlines are coming from there

I'm glad to see after 8 years you've come to terms with not getting your own way.

Nobody has actually proved that there are extra people coming here because of the Rwanda plan. They were probably coming over the border for years. A definitive link is yet to be shown.