To ask what is really so bad about a teaching career compared to other jobs? Does anyone actually enjoy it?

Incidentally I'd say the same is true for secondary schools in Ireland. Irish teens do the Junior Cert when they're 16ish and they have to cover and remember a lot of content. I'm not sure really what the benefit is - stuffing loads of facts into your head isn't very useful. If you held a gun to my head I probably couldn't remember one historical fact from my junior cert (or leaving cert - A level equivalent - for that matter!)

Totally -and this content content content (aka 'knowledge') mindset persists at GCSE.

I completely agree with this-it’s always a total rush to move onto the next thing.

There is a huge focus on English on pointless spag as well. Fronted adverbials and expanded noun phrases for example. I think it was Michael Gove who wanted our children to have what he felt was a perfect 1950s grammar school education, but having parents who attended grammar school in the 1950 and who ended up doing some of my kids’ homework with them, they said it was utter bollocks (my dad’s description) and not phrases they were ever taught/needed to know or have ever used! Yes, they did lots of work on identifying (parsing) types of words in sentences but this feels like made up terminology for the sake of it. With year twos, doing expanded noun phrases ultimately felt like you were telling them to describe something using lots of adjectives which was totally confusing!

I want children to leave primary with a love of learning and books and as the current curriculum stands, we are boring the pants off the kids with mechanics and there’s not enough focus on simple enjoyment of stories.

One thing that struck me about teaching in England is that there seemed to be a constant pressure to move quickly, to get onto the next topic asap. I wasn't sure why - in primary it's not really important to cover a ton of science topics, or do loads of history. It's more important that you ensure kids leave primary with all the basic maths and english skills they need for secondary and for life in general. I felt in Ireland there was much more emphasis on repetition and consolidation rather than barrelling through loads of content at top speed.

Are you in secondary? I think the marking situation is different there because obviously you can't mark 25 essays or lab reports in class. The in-class marking only really works for simpler things.

It's certainly possible to do your own thing in the Irish system - if you want to design your own resources, you're totally welcome to. The point is that it's also fine to just write something on the board, or use a book.

Also, no bloody stupid, utterly annoying, pointless bloody learning objectives!!! (can you tell they pissed me off???)

I must say I do think there re swings and roundabouts about textbooks. My subject's textbook is useless and VERY expensive but also what I DO like about my job is planning (I know!) and being autonomous and creative, still OK in my school.

I couldn't bear teaching to an approved scheme. I would leave. In fact, teachers have left and come back to our school because they value its greater intellectual and teaching freedoms.

I also teach a subject that can't be self marked .

Notwithstanding , I do agree that, overall, the avalanche of paper is ridiculous. And has got worse,not better, with advances in technology!

One thing I'll add is that when you've worked as a teacher it makes every other job seem easy. I now have an office job and I still sometimes marvel at the fact that I can just go to the toilet or get a cup of tea whenever I want. Teaching is full on and intense, even in a nice environment like the Irish system. It takes a lot of energy and creativity and you have to be able to firefight on a constant basis. In good circumstances it is so much fun, more fun that any other job I think.

I qualified and worked as a primary teacher in Ireland about 15 years ago, then moved to England and worked here for a bit before having my son, so I'm familiar with both systems. It was a long time ago, so things may have changed but back then there was a massive difference between working in the two countries. On the whole, working in England was horrible and I didn't go back after having my son, even though I genuinely adored teaching (I still miss it and dream about it, even now) and I was excellent at it (even if I say so myself!). If I'd stayed in Ireland, I'd probably have taught for my entire working life. My mother was secondary teacher in Ireland for 41 years and loved every minute of it - she really didn't want to retire and went very reluctantly a few years ago.

In Ireland, you were not expected to work long hours outside of school. You went in at about 8:40 (though lots of people rocked up just before the bell rang!) and once the last child had left for the day you were out the door. One school I worked in was locked up by 3:30 - you had to get out of there or risk being imprisoned by the caretaker!
There was none of this bollocks about printing out reams and reams of paper and getting the children to stick them into their books. I could never understand that in English schools - what was the point? Just get them to open a textbook and write in their exercise books.
Some displays were expected but it was not expected that you'd have the place plastered in professional-looking triple-backed displays that took hours to make. Again, what's the point?
The marking in England always blew my mind. It was so incredibly stupid. In Ireland, you would do a maths lesson, assign some homework, the children would do that in the evening and the next day you would mark it with them in class, so they actually learned from the bloody thing! It worked so well - you would do the topic in class, they would cover the topic for homework, then you would mark the homework the next day, so the child had three exposures to the material in quick succession. Very effective.
The whole malarkey in England of assigning homework on Monday to be done by Thursday then taking the books home and marking them away from the children so they had no idea whether they did it right or not was utterly incomprehensible to me. Once again, what was the point? Of course some schools tried to tackle it by making teachers write multiple comments in different coloured pens, which the students then had to comment on - what an unbelievable waste of time! In one English school I taught in I suggested doing it the Irish way and they looked at me like I had two heads.
I was really shocked at how prescriptive schools in England were about how teachers teach - in Ireland (back when I was a teacher at least) you did get guidance on how to approach subjects, but basically it was up to you how you delivered a topic and the main aim was to get the information into the kids' heads, no matter how you did it. In England when I was told I had to teach long division a certain way and I wasn't allowed to do it any other way, even if the kids didn't get it, I was boggled. It made me feel like an initiative delivery system rather than a teacher.

There were lots of other differences, but I've wittered on. Basically in Ireland I felt like a professional who was trusted to do a good job without having to constantly justify myself. In England I felt watched and scrutinised and micro-managed. Teaching in Ireland was (mostly) fun. Teaching in England was stressful and time consuming and frustrating. The kids in both countries were gorgeous and amazing and funny and I miss them all the time.

It sounds like stress/workload issues aren’t so bad in Scotland or Ireland as they are in England. Not sure about Wales?

Are they struggling badly with recruitment in Scotland/Ireland? If not, that says it all doesn’t it!? If you pay more, have a reduced workload and inspection stress, then people are happier and want to stay in the job!

My sister teaches in Scotland. She loves it

Home by 4.45pm Mon to Thur

Friday afternoons off (she's full time, but most local authority school finish at lunch time on Fri)

Never works evenings, weekends or holidays

£60K pa

In my independent school lunch is 1hr20 so even if you have a duty or club there is still 40 mins non contact. Lunch is free. Contact time is max 21 periods out of 30. You will be in demand in an independent school as they will pay for prior non teaching experience. Some are now opting out of TeacgrrsPebsion Scheme do go check they too when applying.

I have never heard anyone complain that their job not ‘exactly the same’ as it was when they started, ever.

Saying that the job now has levels of paperwork that are off the scale and the pressure of being observed/micromanaged and monitored means you continually feel high levels of stress, should be listened to, not dismissed. When there was much less stress, paperwork and testing, there wasn’t such a recruitment crisis and the children weren’t so unhappy, either. That’s pretty important really. Things in schools have changed markedly, for the worse for pupils and teacher, they reasons there should be unpicked and addressed, not shut down as old teachers moaning.

Us too. I haven't noticed that happening really - although it's a claim. Just an enormous queue for lunch that takes the entire 35 minutes to be served! And far fewer events and clubs.

We cut lunchtimes right down because of bullying and behaviour problems at lunchtime. It does reduce them.

35 minutes lunch here is standard. Relationships with students - and staff wellbeing-definitely suffer.

Well. Experiences differ.
Although where I work it does cut across ages, but I'm finding it's the young ones complaining the most vociferously at union meetings, but sometimes it's tough in the first few years.
It's important that we support each other.
It very much depends on your personality and what you're looking for in a career. If it's a good fit for you, it's great. I have no regrets.

Interesting how valid complaints and concerns and a lack of respect for experienced teachers thoughts are always reframed as 'moaning'. That isn't new in teaching though.

I am Scottish! It's not as easy as you say to just 'move to Scotland'. There's not the same level of recruitment crisis so not as many jobs (for obvious reasons...) and also the GTC registration is amazingly onerous.

Yep. I take my 50 minutes. I run clubs at lunch and have loads of pupils. It's great.
You couldn't pay me enough to work in England. Move to Scotland. Its got challenges but it's definitely better.
Also, clearly staffroom is a figure of speech. Also, yeah, loads of moaners but the ones who've taught for 35 years already and have another 10 to go are the worst. "Why isn't it exactly like it was the day I started?"

I worked in a high pressure business career and like you found it unfulfilling and retrained aged 53 to be a secondary teacher. I was earning around 120k a year in previous job
I work in an independent school in a leafy suburb and earn around 50k now, 5 years in.
Love being in the classroom even tho behaviour is much more challenging post covid. My life is much more fun filled -lots of laughter and the kids do provide endless entertainment. Colleagues are mostly great, management is dire. Have seen all kinds of managers in my previous career, but in business bad managers lose the company money and mostly get fired -in teaching they just seem to get promoted. Endless marking demands and ‘data drops’ are tedious but as an experienced person you will find it easier to manage the workload and prioritise and avoid the worst of the dross.
Luckily at my age I can sit back with popcorn at their ridiculous demands, but the younger teachers are under the cosh.
I recommend in your situation giving it a go. You don’t need the money so can be a good way to enjoy the final few years before retirement. You will be in big demand as a fresh enthusiastic person but with life experience.
I would not recommend it as a job for younger people planning a family.

I was going to say - who on earth sits in a "staffroom" anymore!
Plus, the colleagues who complain the most seem to cut across the age groups where I work.

Nothing worse than the 55 years old teachers in the staff room whinging that the job isn't the same anymore and counting down the decade until they can retire.

Nice little bit of ageism there.

As a side note, no one goes in staff rooms any more... no time. Unless you're going to tell me you get an hour for lunch, too.

Yes, that's what I said , so this is Scotland, right?

We are called subject leaders here, too. I am in charge of two departments as well and earn a great deal less than you after 35 years experience.

Your role might be seen as similar to a head of faculty here, (not all schools have those ) and might pay somewhere around 50 - 60k in a large school. A subject leader of one subject might be on somewhere in the 40ks. As I said, your pay is equivalent to a deputy or assistant head's pay in England.

I think we are ignoring or sidestepping an issue if we feel pay doesn't matter. If we feel our jobs are full on, demanding and tough , as well as rewarding and challenging, we ought to accept that pay bargaining would demand higher pay , if effective. Same argument junior doctors and otehr sectors are having.

Principal Teacher. I'm in charge of 2 departments. Helps that my departments are excellent teachers who genuinely love working with kids and enjoy their job. Is it perfect? No, things go wrong, times are busy, we moan, budgets get smaller, pointless meetings still exist. But that's every job. You are gonna spend 40 years of your life doing it. You better love working with your colleagues and enjoy the job. Nothing worse than the 55 years old teachers in the staff room whinging that the job isn't the same anymore and counting down the decade until they can retire.

Yes, I would like every education minister to come into schools, talk to teachers and actually work out what needs to be done.

I also firmly believe that if you are minister for anything in this country you should spend some time in that setting to get a handle on the issues before you start setting your agenda. So the minister for education should spend time in maybe a private school, an inner city school, a rural school and specialist provision - from early years to 6th form before they start with their changes. I'm fairly sure gove wouldn't have wasted his time sending all those bibles out if he'd set foot in a school and spoken to even one person there!