Do toxic people know they’re toxic?

Crowgirl
on mn people accuse you of people pleasing if you do something that seems too much trouble to the person saying it (so it’s an insult) or people who seem quite argumentative say ‘I myself used to be a people pleaser’ which means they once went out of their way for someone, were possibly burned doing it and decided nobody should be helped in the world ever. So technically it’s like the ‘if a tree falls and there’s nobody around to hear it’ scenario as person 1 isn’t being a people pleaser as they’re just trying to help in general, person 2 definitely isn’t a people pleaser so is there really a thing? (Wow I’m tired after that!!😅)

Perhaps this is a bit negative (toxic?) of me, but I wonder whether a lot of this introspection and moral inventory-taking isn’t quite a gendered exercise? How many men do this?

People pleasing can often be a coping method/ issue/ symptom of neurodivergence.

It can also be part of a trauma response.

Believe it or not, people pleasing is definitely a thing.

Being toxic is a bit more vague though. It can be many things. I do believe that some combinations of people are toxic and some people bring out the worst in others. Like being toxic isn't necessarily immutable but also can be.

Mine come from my upbringing too bless you ...I just want ppl to recognise that some ppl are not toxic intentionally they may have issues I'm glad I got help ty for your kind comments I am very proud you should be too x

I got help with talking therapy it was amazing after years of being in denial it was the best thing I did …I suffer GAD and OCD …yes I agree nothing excuses it and not all have MH

Absolutely toxic is toxic ….it’s about managing behaviour regardless of the reason ….I’m just saying sometimes behaviour can be due to MH …but I hear where you’re coming from …

This is a very honest and insightful post.

I do understand what you are saying and have lived with MH issues/trauma myself so I'm not insensitive to it or unaware of it.

However, if someone else perceives behaviours to he toxic, then they are. The intention (of lack thereof) behind them doesn't lessen the impact on other people and those people can still experience that person, behaviours/relationship as toxic.

Eg A lot of emotional abuse within romantic relationships isn't 'intentional'. It's simply one person trying to preserve their peace of mind - say around the other person cheating on them. Some people manage their feelings of insecurity internally, using positive self talk etc. Some people manage it by going quiet - they won't tell their partner not to go out but it will be obvious from their mood/demeanour that they're unhappy about it and the other person picks up on that and it puts a dampner on their night out. Other people will kick off so that the other person doesn't go out because its not worth the hassle.

The person going quiet or kicking off is only trying to protect themselves from being betrayed or the fear of it. But it is toxic to the other person. Understanding the reason doesn't change the outcome.

I've met a few women over the years who've smiled and said, "I always get my own way" and I've always wondered whether they realise how much they're hated.

Yes, I've seen the delusion that it's self defence or justified revenge myself.

I don't think they do. I think a previous bullying manager just thought we were all difficult and intransigent, and he had to be a strong manager I response. But his people skills were appalling and he didn't listen at all. He had little to no self-awareness as far as I could tell.

I would have thought that if he understood how his behaviour caused others to react, he'd have tried better at improving negotiation skills and so on, rather than just issuing orders which caused resentment.

I could see a lot of my mother in the way he behaved. She once came home from work saying, "Sam [not actual name] said I can have a bullying manner, but I don't do I?" I did not know what to say - my head was screaming, "Yes! Yes, you do! This shouldn't be news to you!" But my sense of self-preservation was also telling me she clearly didn't believe it, and this was also the woman to whom I owed 6 stitches after she assaulted me (i don't think she'd have called it assault, because that's a serious thing...) So in the end, probably not after as long a delay as it felt, I pointed out thst in harassment training we'd had at work, it's the effect on the person that counts, rather than the intention of person being complained about. But I think it was a genuine surprise to her anyone would consider her a bully, whereas I was thinking, what took them so long?

@LittleGlowingOblong i would have honest conversations with people you trust. In a lot of situations now I ask myself how would I feel if the shoe was on the other foot? I know it’s a basic cliche but it’s a cliche for a reason. The fact you’re even questioning it is an amazing sign of self awareness and being a good person x

@Hatinthislife

Thank you so much for this response.
It’s more that I’m trying to look at myself and see whether there are parts of myself that are toxic, and creating some situations.

It took me years to see just how alcoholic and repressed my parents were, in particular I had a difficult relationship with my mother. I have poor boundaries, leading to resentment, and I think maybe I’m projecting some stuff on to others. Often my friends disappoint me.

So I’m trying to be more reflective, but even if you look in a mirror you see everything back to front!

i fell in love with my husband and I realised the way I was going on was killing him. I realised when I seen he was the shadow of the man he was before he met me and the only difference in his life was me. A 6ft, strapping man who was literally on his knees crying over me. I had no empathy before I met him and every relationship was about what I could get out of it.

I had no friends, I couldn’t keep them as again, it was all about what benefit I could extract from it.

in hindsight, it was derived from a co dependent upbringing and I let that influence carry into my 20s.

I recognise now the relationship being a victim and also a perpetrator. I was the victim of a lot of abuse but then in turn I perpetrated it. It’s not an excuse or a justification, but an explanation at least.

I was very unhappy in myself then - looking and getting a lot of skin deep attention from men, lapping it up, needing validation etc but it really is because of insecurity and just not being a nice person.

I still have traits that I work on every single day but I am nowhere near the horrible person I used to be.

toxic people have demons but it’s up to them to recognise and deal with, you can’t make them nor is it anyone else’s responsibility. My honest opinion from being toxic in the past is don’t waste your time on someone like that because they’ll only change if they want to and recognise what’s wrong within themselves

As I've already stated ...some ppl are called toxic but infact have MH as I do ...I got help some cope better ..I wish ppl would understand MH abit more

I don’t think most people have enough self awareness to know how they come across, regardless of their personality traits.

I suspect most toxic people just think they are winning at life.

Thinking back to the people I've considered toxic over the years then I think it is a mix. Some must've known what they did/were doing, even if they continued to lie to cover it up - the blushes when caught out shit stirring, the duper's delight/smirks...and the abrupt change in behaviour when they see someone.

One person (family member - keep at arm's length) tells stories about interactions with other people where even in their own story they come across really badly and they just can't see it. Zero consideration for anyone else's needs or what a CF they have been.

I used to have a colleague who openly admitted to me that she would start a rumour about another colleague and see how long it took to get back to her - I still don't know if she recognised how toxic it was, I know she thought it was funny and thought she could get away with lots of things/everyone had to pander to her needs because she suffered badly with depression at times.

I've definitely done/said things I now consider to be toxic - at the time I possibly though I was defending/protecting myself/giving as good as I got/it was normal and fine (e.g. negative gossip) or justified in some way. I don't now. They make me cringe but all I can do is learn from them. I also try to learn from other people (both ways).

What kind of relationship difficulties and what do people tell you about it, Glowing?

May I ask: how did you realise? And how did you change? Did your friendships change?

I keep running into relationship difficulties and I’m trying to see the big picture. It’s not easy.

Some possibly are aware some won’t be. There seems to have been a huge increase in people suffering from main character syndrome. They are just unable to see anyone else’s needs.

I think 'unaware' is a slightly too passive description.... I think 'refuse to see, because the truth about themselves would be unbearably uncomfortable' would be more accurate..... I don't think my MIL consciously calculated and decided to behave horrifically.... I think at least parts of her genuinely believed she was the victim. But I also think she allowed herself to indulge in awful behaviours, using twisted logic and self-delusion to rationalise how that was ok..... primarily by telling herself other people's treatment of her was unfair, nobody understood her challenges, nobody appreciated her as they should, her life was a failure, all she'd had in her life was pain... or that she was the victim.... always the victim. She was only ever defending, when she was persecuting...(by her perception)