To feel so sad about what happened to our town?

‘It's interesting that Jesus (if he existed as one person) didn't set up his own church. I wonder why that is?’

It might be ‘interesting ‘ but it is also completely incorrect. Jesus appointed large numbers of people as ‘disciples’ and ‘delegates’ whom he told to go out into the country and spread the word of the Gospel. They were given the power to ‘cast out devils’ ‘heal the sick’ and by intercession, forgive sins .

In the case of the twelve Apostles, one is specifically appointed to head the Church, that is, the body of the Faithful.
‘You are Peter, and on this rock ( pun on the Greek meaning of the name) I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it’.

You may not believe in the veracity of this report, although it is very ancient, but it definitely existed from very early times, when there were still living people who had co existed with the ( possibly according to you mythical) Jesus.

BTW I am not a Catholic, just interested in early church history. Sorry for the derailment, but facts matter.

I beg to differ. Those you mention were capitalists enjoying the rewards of the industrial revolution who happened to be Christian by faith and could pretend that it was God's work.

Lower taxes don't lead to growth, not growth that makes ordinary peoples lives any better, so what if a few multi nationals make huge profit?

UK had v lower corp tax for many years, didn't lead to any extra growth at all... we still have a low overall tax burden but is it reducing waiting lists? getting our roads repaired? rebuilding NHS dentistry?

Business always wants lower taxes because that means they can make bigger profits & pay themselves huge bonuses.

The USA is often given as an example for what lower taxes can do... yes great, tent cities for the poor, no national health service...

Our town had a Tory sell off social housing earmarked for locals to a deprived London borough. They won a bid for it (council here couldn't afford to bid higher) and now there are thousands of people miles away from family, no medical records forwarded and severe MH issues in the area with no extra govt funding. This is the kind of thing happening to keep London for the rich at the expense of the rest of us.

Under funding of the police and social services by the govt is beyond a joke.

Hanoi is not in India, pet.

And the Fentanyl is coming from China so I understand. So an already weak society is being weakened further by a hostile power and the Tories have handed it to them it on a plate.

@Chockdavis In defence of (some!) state services, immigration is completely out of control.

I agree completely. But when I pointed out the high numbers of people in the country, another poster said that was a middle class issue and couldn't see the correlation between society beginning to break down at the bottom end and immigration. Another poster helpfully included a link to 'behavioural sink', which absolutely nails it. There are too many of us for the space we're living in and the whole thing is beginning to collapse.

A major incident was declared in North Devon on Friday evening as an extraordinarily strong batch of heroin started to floor people. It was probably laced with fentanyl or nitazenes - there is a real problem with this rapidly developing in the UK. Especially in the West Midlands.

That's exactly what Margaret Atwood predicted back in the 80's!

Scary, and quite quick and easy to do as well. They did it overnight in the handmaids tale didn't they 😬

Fentanyl which is epidemic in the USA is starting to make its way into the UK. It's hundreds times stronger than heroin.
There's a big problem with drunks and drug users in my town centre too along with naughty teenagers. It's always been a problem here but does seem to be getting worse

Also very high taxes on alcohol

Yes irritates me as well

This is a problem

A previous poster very deliberately talked about "denying human rights to 5% of the population", which is what I am referring to.

Yes this is a very relevant point and I was thinking about this

@Barbadossunset I suppose my ideas about revolution are stuck in the ‘huge crowds with flaming torches storming palaces and grand houses’ mode.

I think we're enjoying the same daydreams there 😀I polish my pitchfork every week ha ha. But @passtheajax makes a very good comment. This is why a cashless society is something we should fight tooth and nail against. Once we've lost hard cash, 'they' can turn the taps on and off at will. People need to think about the freedoms we willingly give up in the name of progress.

Via technology.
Restricting credit.
Interfering in people's bank accounts - it's already happened.
Removing people's jobs.

There are ways.

Passtheajax I hadn’t thought of any of that. I suppose my ideas about revolution are stuck in the ‘huge crowds with flaming torches storming palaces and grand houses’ mode.

Done not fine

Via technology.
Restricting credit.
Interfering in people's bank accounts - it's already happened.
Removing people's jobs.

There are ways.

Noone said everyone who calls themselves Christians are perfect, they are human. But all of the great things about this country- amazing buildings, social reform, ending slavery were fine by Christians. Someone said if people don't believe in God they'll believe in anything. At the moment that includes transgender ism, consumerism/extreme capitalism and even satanism/the occult is growing. People need to read Dominion by Tom Holland to see how everything we value (and are losing) is down to Christianity.

The aristocrats and the very rich mainly got out in time.

That’s very interesting and it’s what would happen if revolution broke out here. The very rich would jump in their jets and off they go.
Re the aristocracy - there are still plenty of rich ones but how many have substantial assets abroad? Their escape might be similar to the Russian revolution in that they’d grab what they could carry in the form of jewellery and paintings if they had any.
Would the less well off ones be guillotined because they’re ‘posh’? Probably.
There are plenty of posters on mn for who ‘posh’ is the worst insult.
I guess the same would happen to the better off middle classes - as you describe in the French Revolution.

Holding them to account isn't removing their human rights. Yes they need education, jobs etc. but many of this type have jobs and cars and houses. They're still making people's lives a misery though.

Most of the people executed by the guillotine were the political opponents of the people currently in power ( it changed pretty rapidly). The vast majority were either members of the middle class who were perceived as being slightly richer than their local customers, or who had just picked the ‘ wrong’ side. The aristocrats and the very rich mainly got out in time . Nearly all the leaders of the Revolution ( Danton , Robespierre even the bloke who wrote the Marseillais) ended up on the scaffold. When Napoleon appeared they were gasping for some stability ….

oh and Nuns. They seem to get it no matter who was in power.

But are the behavioural norms worse or are they just more exposed? People have hidden behind religion while perpetrating awful abuse behind closed doors. They have justified it as their interpretation of God's work. Priests have gone against the teaching of Jesus who said (sic) not to harm one hair on the head of a child.

If every religious person simply followed the good bits, we'd be fine. But human nature being what it is, that doesn't happen.

Interestingly there is a resurgence in evangelical Christianity at the moment, especially in theUS. Al Jazeera had a couple of videos about "Praying for Armageddon". Religious zealots who do have the ears of people in power are all over the war in Gaza because of ancient prophecies that say Jesus will return if the temple can be rebuilt etc. They're hanging out for the Rapture. I shit you not.

This is a very good indicator of worldwide instability and fear - we can't make things better (or more accurately the people in power don't want to) so we'll turn back to God. If that isn't denial if personal responsibility I don't know what is

In defence of (some!) state services, immigration is completely out of control. When you have services to look after the most vulnerable, then expected to look after 100 times or more the number of people, rapidly increasing daily, someone has to pay for it or the general service will reduce at best.

There is no political will to curb it, because in the main, society doesn’t want to change it. It irritates me a little, as people demand more social housing. It’s being built, but those that get it are often not from the UK. More help is needed for addicts, well yes but more and more are arriving all the time, what do you do, build addict towns? There are no magical wands to waft around, which is what it would take to fit support and manage the amount of economically inactive and vulnerable people in a small country with sea borders. If nothing else, even if the money is thrown at it, there isn’t enough staff or people prepared to manage it. So here is your result and it’s going to get a lot worse.

I don't feel like religion has gone away, I just think it's being replaced. I've felt for a while that certain beliefs of the progressive US left, that then get exported, are akin to a new religion.

Like everything, changes bring upsides and downsides. Loss of religion = a less judgemental society but also a society with worsened behavioural norms.