To feel so sad about what happened to our town?

I get this too. But many people who didn't feel they belonged or liked the UK have still done their best and then moved somewhere they preferred.

A lot of my friends have emigrated to Aus. They didn't necessarily come from secure beginnings but worked and saved and then moved for a better lifestyle.

I know its not as simple as saying move. I'm personally considering leaving the UK myself and it isn't simple. But if you feel somewhere is shit, you either can help make it nice or take the step (as many do and always have) to try to find a more suitable place to be your home.

I think the UK has a sub culture of 'I don't care' whether it be about education, working hard, dressing well.

There is that apathy now.

A lot of people don't take responsibility for what's there's - there home, family, health, their street. Someone else can do the hard work and upkeep but not me.

There was a thread a while ago on whether people should look after their parents. To me it's a no brainer - yes. Unless your parent has been truly awful to you. But they are your parents. Who else is going to do it? Same with kids. Who else is going to look after them? Pets. You've got to walk your own dog. A slide in people accepting responsibility.

We do need services and support but we also need to acknowledge what we need to be responsible for as individuals. Anyone can pick up litter from the road to make it look a bit nicer. Many say they shouldn't have to. I do understand that as we pay Council tax. But is it really that big a deal to do something to make the area a bit nicer even if for a moment?

@JamSandle it is about a sense of investment in our society. A feeling you belong.

Many good points raised on this thread.

I think also people's sense of pride has been eroded.

I say this without judgement but many people do not dress nicely (not expensively mind, but nicely), they do not eat well or nourish their bodies, they do not use manners. The sense of community even in poor areas (washing the steps in council properties) is largely gone.

People do not take pride in their environment whether its there own home or their larger community.

You see people throw litter on the floor or spit on the ground or throw cigarettes and gum onto the floor. Not thinking/caring that this drags down the environment we live in, which impacts how we feel. And it's a vicious cycle.

Of course part of the reason for a loss of pride may be mental health, loneliness, addiction, poverty, but there's also an apathy.

My dad grew up poor but always had a sense of 'I put on my best clothes and make an effort for the day ahead.' It's not really about the clothes per say, it's the thought process that says 'I deserve to make an effort and take pride in myself/my community'.

@Alarmingghhh when we came back from living in Copenhagen the way we described the uk in mid 2022 was it was like the Wild West relative to Copenhagen- we saw police everywhere there and the equivalent of PCSOs too- rarely saw homeless as they had big managed hostels , not just beds but washing facilities, cheap cafe, sitting round areas etc -

Denmark is an interesting case, they are actually quite authoritarian in many ways and yet very liberal in others. Same true in Netherlands.

A biggie though is expectations- I net very few women who didn't work at least 25 hours a week but childcare was very cheap- even with babies- so most families have 2 incomes coming in and far less people claiming as wages are high- tax is high too. The expectation is you contribute to society (unless you genuinely can't) - not that you sit around on entitled working out how few hours you can get away with to get maximum benefits ( and yes some people really are like this because our system makes it this way)

They also have a lot more social housing still of all types and no stigma on it- it's not quite as easy as it once was to get it especially in Copenhagen but it's still not as hard as here and lots of it is pretty nice too

The UK needs a reset in so many ways if it wants to stop being a bit of a craphole with a few areas that are relatively ok.

Be nice if we could do it peacefully.

Hairbear yes but how?

The next town along from mine (about 20 mins drive) is like you describe. People are drinking and shouting and swearing on the streets.

There is a pub in the town centre where homeless people and ex-prisoners have been housed, a house for alcoholics and several houses for young people who have a criminal record. I do appreciate all these people need to be housed and supported. The problem is they are concentrated in one area of the town.

I am also not looking down on any of these people as I have a family member who is in one of these categories and I visit them regularly as they need the support. What I have seen is absolutely shocking tbh. It is not a safe environment for them.

I have written to four different MPs and they have all passed the buck and I haven’t received a decent response from any of them. I am sure they would be shocked too but I doubt they would ever visit such an area to see it with their own eyes.

Garry Newlove

The old dichotomy of left and right no longer applies to our world IMO. The new dichotomy is localism vs globalism

I’m not advocating violence. The point is they got rid of the apex of inequality in their country. While ever we have a royal family, the class system will remain alive and well and those at the top of it will thrive, at the expense of people further down. Be nice if we could do it peacefully but that bunch with the riches never concede any of it willingly, hence France’s (and others) extreme measures.

A few things to bear on mind when using France as a model....

Huge taxes compared to UK. Is everyone willing to do that?

Big attachment to the land and respect for agriculture and farming even in the cities. How was that lost in the UK and can it be brought back?

The revolution...Well, its great that that happened but in some ways it was quite a fluke and an event triggered by actually a small group. It wasn't necessarily a national mindset...

increased the popularity of marine le pen?

Immigration and lack of integration. They are fed up. Same all over Europe now really.

It is very clear in run down areas that the bad people are untouchable. Efforts to make the public feel safe are almost patronising.

This is what pisses me off. They've torn up the social contract. Unlike the US, we're not allowed to arm ourselves, even pepper spray (I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing obviously, given what happens there) and we are generally far more constrained about what is considered appropriate self-defence. It could very easily be the generally law-abiding person that ends up on the wrong side of the law in a confrontation, particularly if the others are under 16.

But the whole point of constraining our right to arm and defend ourselves should be that the police will do it for us. And they do not. We're literally left completely defenseless, all you can do is keep your head down, avoid trouble, live in the best area you can afford and have decent insurance in place. And just hope you're not unlucky.

It's all so wrong though, surely our taxes should buy us some level of safety?

If they’re so left wing why have they have a supposedly right wing leader for so long and increased the popularity of marine le pen?

We have more people than ever going to prison. Those who think this is the answer do not understand how these people feel. There will always be a small minority who will need to end up in prison. But for the majority you need to structure society so they can operate within it, and feel they have some investment in society.
Instead in any discussions say on MN about changes that negatively impact those most disadvantaged such as a cashless society, or online information only, the reaction is often well you can't hold back progress. But if you take that attitude those people do not disappear. And they will find other ways of living instead.

I see where you're coming from. However, because what we now realise were vulnerable people were abused so badly laws were passed to protect their rights. Mental capacity is one example of a loveable feast hindering getting proper support for the vulnerable because it costs money. It's all extremes these days and a multidisciplinary approach that is essentially a Hydra with no room for common sense or nuance. Plus lack if experienced staff in many areas.

They also had a guillotine and weren’t frightened to use it, but that’s a whole new thread.

Hairbear do you think it should be reintroduced? And for the same people as it was originally used for?

@LiquoriceAllsort2 I believe Labour have talked about something similar.

I’d be happy to be more like France if we adopted some of the socialism they still enjoy. France is a much more left wing country, despite Macron’s right wing credentials. They didn’t let the market decide and are a better country for it. They also had a guillotine and weren’t frightened to use it, but that’s a whole new thread.

And a job really does make a difference for a lot of those on the edge of falling into the not coping group. Having to get up every day and do something, especially if it is something you can do well enough to feel good about. But as mentioned just about every job these days requires good literacy, IT skills, and many require good communication and team work skills. For those who do not have these getting a job can be almost impossible.
I employed in a previous job a cleaner who had learning difficulties, so could not complete an application form or do an interview. But they were proud of being good at cleaning and getting a wage packet. Getting jobs like this now for anyone is extremely tough.

Maybe the answer is simply that these people have always existed throughout the ages but two things have changed:

1 - They used to only have access to alcohol, now they have loads of substances available
2 - They used to be policed with a heavy hand

All we need to do is fix those two factors

I understand how these people feel. I am struggling but coping. But getting help with anything is so difficult these days. For example at one time people who struggled with basic literacy could go to a council office and get help to apply for council tax, or go to cba to get help with form filling. Now only the cba help with this and the waiting times can be ridiculously long.

If a company makes a mistake with your utilities it can mean many hours on the phone trying to sort it out. I know people who have only managed to get things sorted by complaining to Ofgem. People with poor literacy and little credit on their phone can often not navigate this, so can end up with a pre payment meter they can not afford, through no fault of their own.

Even seeing a GP can be difficult. So the people already struggling give up and do not bother.

We are just managing financially. But I honestly think if I did have to use a foodbank I could not cope with getting a formal referral and I would be tempted to just steal instead. So I do understand some of this.

People struggling but just about managing used to be able to drop in and get help from various local staff they knew would at least advise them. A friend who was a local librarian said she used to get several people bringing in letters they could not read asking them to read them for them. We had a local council office that would get people dropping in for all sorts of help and information. None of this is available now.