Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To feel so sad about what happened to our town?

644 replies

AbstractThought · 26/04/2024 16:05

I wasn't born here, DH was, and I have seen it discussed on MN in the past. I am aware that many towns across the UK are in a similar situation, so this probably isn't anything special, but since most people talk about shop closures I wanted to look at it from a different angle.

In the past decade we have a ton more issues in the town than previously, often relating to homelessness and addiction, and the town centre, what's left of it, has become completely over run by these problems with groups of people fighting and street drinking. A lot of these people are in extreme difficulty, whether mental health related and/or drug issues. Crime shot through the roof, and even about 8 streets away from this it spills outwards to us in what was once a fairly quiet place to live.
We now have a constant stream of siren noise, day and night, helicopters are daily and whilst we personally haven't felt in any actual danger there is a horrible sense of decay and hopelessness. Just nipping to the closest supermarket is depressing, there are a lot of neglected animals and people having meltdowns in the streets.

It is how it changed so quickly though. I can't get my head around where it all started or why. I am aware of the contribution of politics, covid, all of that stuff, but it seems so incredibly extreme. The siren noise is the worst, it is piercing and never seems to end. This also seemed to explode around the same time as the area went downhill. Probably a mix of police and emergency vehicles. It is difficult to work or relax at home and if you are a light sleeper it can have an impact there too.

What I am wondering is if this is commonplace now, in what was once a thriving town? It is the sheer amount of troubled people which seems to have escalated the most, and I can't get my head around how this has evolved, in such a short space of time. It is like they weren't here, then suddenly appeared, it is difficult to describe it. Obviously the council can't do a great deal to help and I have no idea what the answer is. The most upsetting thing is that a lot of these people are so messed up that they can barely talk in a way that is decipherable. This includes children, and there is a growing amount of people who have barely any teeth. This is a fucking severe problem and I have no idea what will help it. We have mucked in with a few local charities but it barely scratches the surface in my opinion.
We are moving due to work relocation soon, so whilst it may not be 'our' problem after we have gone, this isn't the point. I am just so sorry that it has come to this, in likely even more places than just here. WTF happened??

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Original poster
AbstractThought · 27/04/2024 20:44

I think that a lot of locals are angry because the authorities don't do anything about it. So the rest of us are expected to go elsewhere, stay in or simply avoid it.
Why do their interests outweigh ours? I can't understand why any authority would protect the rights of the anti social over everyone else. But if you look at places like ours, this is what's happening. It's theirs. It belongs to them. They rule.

OP posts:
Lonelycrab · 27/04/2024 20:43

I'm not against higher taxation of online retailers in order to equalise things, but we can't assume that will result in a return to physical shops again

If those taxes were used to subsidise small retailers rents/rates then I think it would be a good step towards people using actual shops again, levelling the playing field.

Jeff bezo is currently swanning around in a half a billion pound (I kid you not) yacht.

Lagoony · 27/04/2024 20:42

AbstractThought · 27/04/2024 20:30

I am wondering how more shops and a bit more disposable income would discourage women from screaming aggressively loud F words at their toddlers in our local primark. I'm sure they love their kids, but that's hardly the point.

People have generally changed. And it's spreading out. There is no shame or societal motivation to reverse this.
I wish we could fix the housing and living costs crisis, but I don't think the behavioural issues would change. It would be a pleasant start though.

I do agree that behavioural standards have declined but there is always a reason for this. People don't just suddenly decide 'do you know what, I'm going to be an unpleasant prick' one day our of nowhere. I think one of the main drivers had been the division and isolation of general people now. In the past, people were part of a community and avoided anything considered 'shameful' because local people would remember it. Now though, people stay in a lot more and are less likelynto know and socialise with people in their area, so there's no point restraining your behaviour. They're virtually anonymous, there's no consequence. There's also no police presence anywhere so no sense of authority.

Original poster
AbstractThought · 27/04/2024 20:40

How would the refurb of a decrepit town centre diminish the crime/drugs presence? Isn't it more pertinent to tackle the latter first?

For a failing town that hasn't lost itself to very visible anti social issues, this might help, but probably not where I am. No business or company will touch it apart from Poundland, Primark, B&M's. You can't attract diverse crowds when the streets are heaving with drunks and littered doorways. The only businesses that have replace M&S and Debs here are casino's and nail shops.

We had the council plan a huge residential building with affordable apartments which fell through. I doubt anyone would have paid to live in them.

OP posts:
Churchview · 27/04/2024 20:39

@WoshPank Bristol town centre has gone, in 15 years from being a thriving, upbeat, optimistic place into a pit of closed up units, rough sleepers, blatant drug abuse and filthy streets. The only shops are low rent or charity shop.

The empty buildings are gradually being turned into student accommodation.

The combination of vast amounts of students (especially at night), office workers no longer coming into the city due to home working, appalling public transport, lack of decent shops, expensive parking and a threatening atmosphere have reduced it to a no go area for most.

WoshPank · 27/04/2024 20:33

It would be a good idea to think about how we repurpose town centre spaces that were designed to be retail dominated and increasingly aren't. I'm not against higher taxation of online retailers in order to equalise things, but we can't assume that will result in a return to physical shops again. People may very well choose to just pay more, particularly when they also have to factor in the costs of travel to shops. And online retail can also be second hand stuff, which people often choose specifically because they don't want to buy new in shops.

Original poster
AbstractThought · 27/04/2024 20:30

I am wondering how more shops and a bit more disposable income would discourage women from screaming aggressively loud F words at their toddlers in our local primark. I'm sure they love their kids, but that's hardly the point.

People have generally changed. And it's spreading out. There is no shame or societal motivation to reverse this.
I wish we could fix the housing and living costs crisis, but I don't think the behavioural issues would change. It would be a pleasant start though.

OP posts:
Churchview · 27/04/2024 20:30

coldcallerbaiter · 27/04/2024 19:50

There is no magic money tree, the nhs and all else is paid for by growth ultimately. Lower tax, higher incentive. Example, lower corporation tax, it’s how Ireland attracted business.

As someone said upthread, Scandinavia is not some ideal country.

Edited
Show quote history

Happiness rating by country.

No 1. Finland 7.8
No 2. Denmark 7.6
No 5. Sweden 7.4
No 6. Norway 7.3
No 14. UK 6.8

sulkingsock · 27/04/2024 20:28

grapeomelette · 26/04/2024 23:10

There are many towns in France and Spain with the same problem, so the root cause goes beyond just politics.

This.

ShyMaryEllen · 27/04/2024 20:24

LiquoriceAllsort2 · 27/04/2024 19:41

This is an example of why nothing will change as we always have the " but what about so and so"

I thought disabled people had extra money as discussed on another thread to pay for extra costs.

Show quote history

My comment is no more backward looking than yours saying that people should go back to shopping in shops. People don't want to do that nowadays (and whether or not disabled people get extra money isn't particularly relevant to accessibility - not everything comes down to cost) so why incentivise it? Isn't it more forward thinking to look for ways to use town centres that are not retail based? Community hubs, leisure facilities that are not centred around alcohol so generations can mix, converting shops to flats and houses - there are all sorts of things that could make town centres more appealing and less threatening, but we always have people wanting things to stay how they used to be and refusing to consider change.

qwertyasdfgzxcv · 27/04/2024 20:10

LaurieFairyCake · 27/04/2024 08:04

This is why I moved to London, it never goes downhill like that. Every town I've ever lived in before (lived everywhere) has never fully recovered.

The sheer volume of people in London to pay council tax means services are so much better.

Just as an example I've got an online NHS doctor - there are still appointments available for tomorrow (Sunday!)

What part of London? I'm actually surprised as often people moan about London and wanting to leave

Loulou599 · 27/04/2024 20:10

We shouldn't be using Scandinavia as a yardstick. Scandinavian countries have lots of land, low populations, and more importantly still homogeneous cultures and societies until very, very recently. Their starting point is completely different from ours.

Lagoony · 27/04/2024 20:09

I'm sure council planning comes in as a factor but let's be honest the fact that the average person now has £0 left to.spend after essentials hasn't helped.
Let's nor forget that 'essentials' are all paid to a very limited number of businesses.

Crikeyalmighty · 27/04/2024 20:08

@BlackCountryWench2 are you in Dudley? (Just guessing by your handle) - out of curiosity why don't you move if you are going an hour just to get a pleasant shopping experience? Not an accusation, I'm just curious- I know I would. I lived in Wolverhampton for 3 years with an ex partner in early 90s and to be honest you would have to pay me to live in the area. Totally depressing.

Lonelycrab · 27/04/2024 20:02

There is no magic money tree

@coldcallerbaiter

Well there kinda is actually. It had to be shaken vigorously by the BofE after the trussonimics budget that almost bankrupt the entire U.K. pension industry. My Sil works at the BoE quite high up and she told me about the 24/7 shifts they all put in, providing the financial smoke and mirrors to ensure the entire thing didn’t go down the shitter.

My DF, 83, ex city finance/trader boy and about as brexy and Tory as you can get said this about Truss when I asked him about the market turmoil after her budget:

”Market reaction is just an aggregate of global opinion- if that opinion says the proposal (unfunded tax cuts for billionaires) is not realistic, they will act on that and remove their money and investment”

Thankfully everyone knows truss was an utter loon now, apart from a few highly deluded and uniformed individuals.

User135644 · 27/04/2024 20:02

hairbearbunches · 26/04/2024 18:59

It's like that famous quote "How did you go bankrupt? Slowly at first and then all at once.'

The state of Britain today has been a long time in the making. We've had neo liberal economics since 1979 and this is the end result. Labour didn't reverse any of the bullshit Thatcher gave us and ended up being seat warmers for Cameron and Osborne to swan back in and crack on. The country deserves so much better than what we've had for such a long time. It's truly tragic how mismanaged we've been.

You get what you vote for, ultimately.

JenniferBooth · 27/04/2024 19:57

NoisySnail · 27/04/2024 19:56

@LiquoriceAllsort2 You do not get extra benefits simply for having trouble walking. Loads of older people can not walk easily.

Yes that was a really inane post. I was talking about access to the high street not benefits

Crikeyalmighty · 27/04/2024 19:57

@Loulou599 having lived in Denmark for a couple of years but back in uk since 2022 - I will take the linear , flat and consistent nature thanks of Scandinavia- maybe some swedes and Dane's do get fed up of the linear non threatening feel of scandiland but I suspect that's the ones who can come here if they wish as scientist/bankers/high end engineers/architects etc - not just random mid level earners . (Who it isn't easy for them to come now anyway unless they want to work in care etc)

The only foreigners I can imagine thinking the UK is great are all at a level where they are doing very nicely thank you- kids at the lycee etc , not living in say Halifax with £14 an hour jobs and a 2 up two down rental. OR they have come from somewhere that was even shittier in terms of housing, health, job situation, etc.

NoisySnail · 27/04/2024 19:56

@LiquoriceAllsort2 You do not get extra benefits simply for having trouble walking. Loads of older people can not walk easily.

WoshPank · 27/04/2024 19:52

taxguru · 26/04/2024 19:56

All the anti-car councils have helped to ruin town and city centres. People just drive to out of town retail parks and supermarkets that offer free and easy parking and are usually on better less congested roads. That caused lots of town centre businesses to become no longer viable, hence them closing down and leaving empty/derelict shops and letting the dross take over, thus making them even less attractive for shops and shoppers.

The "cafe culture" idea for town centres may work in the few places with exceptional public transport but in the vast majority of towns and small cities with crap public transport, it's just led to huge numbers of people basically boycotting the town centres in favour of out of town alternatives. Add in online shopping and there's even less reason for "normal" people to go into town centres.

Unpalatable but true.

I'm verrrrrrrry pro public transport, and am lucky enough to live in a big city that's still buzzing and has a centre that people want to be in. The council have been able to restrict car access and charge a lot for parking, not least because there are multiple public transport options. It's not perfect by any means, but there are millions of people who can access it this way and lots clearly do.

But... this only works if you have an offering that people can get to, and find sufficiently attractive to bother. Both boxes have to be ticked, to make the town centre viable. When they aren't, people who'd have used them a couple of decades ago stop coming in, and there is a vacuum left to be filled.

coldcallerbaiter · 27/04/2024 19:50

swimsong · 27/04/2024 19:07

Oh boy, you really have drank the Kool Aid.

Show quote history

There is no magic money tree, the nhs and all else is paid for by growth ultimately. Lower tax, higher incentive. Example, lower corporation tax, it’s how Ireland attracted business.

As someone said upthread, Scandinavia is not some ideal country.

CalmMintReader · 27/04/2024 19:49

Loulou599 · 27/04/2024 19:42

Well I have to say from the outside but inside, as a foreigner who really loves this country of yours (and now mine): i was trying to figure out what makes the UK so unique in a bad and good way, and i think there is something about this place that is very pagan.
I don't mean that in a snooty way.
But there is a kind of feral nature to the people here that I haven't seen elsewhere in Europe. Its about tribalism. For example, of course we have accents in France too. But if you take just England, the range of accents is quite incredible. How can you go from a scouse accent to a Birmingham accent to a Manchester accent in such a small distance?
It ties in with the development of football too.
There is a strange tribalism to the UK.

At the same time, the country and people are socially/philosophically much more advanced in many ways. There are more ways of being a person in the UK, than in many countries in Europe IMO.For example, people hold up Scandinavia as an ideal. But I have known many Scandinavian expats who couldn't wait to escape the linear, flat nature of their society. Apparently there is a big "tall poppy" syndrome there.

The UK really is a strange place. I think that's why I always was drawn to it. It's quite a scary yet freeing place. I think what makes it terrible also makes it great but I can't put my finger on it.

This is a really refreshing comment and interesting to read.

CalmMintReader · 27/04/2024 19:47

God what a depressing read this thread is :(. We are lucky to live in a nice affluent town but locals moan about things on Facebook too - it could be a lot worse as you describe. Is it a worldwide problem? 🤷‍♀️ I know on our travels we’ve noticed big (negative) changes to cities we haven’t visited in 15/20 years such as San Francisco.

Crikeyalmighty · 27/04/2024 19:47

@Alexandra2001 and the tax cuts are pointless because we have a society where they can add hundreds to your rent or mortgage's 'at a stroke' plus allow obscene profits in utilities without any controls.

Loulou599 · 27/04/2024 19:42

Well I have to say from the outside but inside, as a foreigner who really loves this country of yours (and now mine): i was trying to figure out what makes the UK so unique in a bad and good way, and i think there is something about this place that is very pagan.
I don't mean that in a snooty way.
But there is a kind of feral nature to the people here that I haven't seen elsewhere in Europe. Its about tribalism. For example, of course we have accents in France too. But if you take just England, the range of accents is quite incredible. How can you go from a scouse accent to a Birmingham accent to a Manchester accent in such a small distance?
It ties in with the development of football too.
There is a strange tribalism to the UK.

At the same time, the country and people are socially/philosophically much more advanced in many ways. There are more ways of being a person in the UK, than in many countries in Europe IMO.For example, people hold up Scandinavia as an ideal. But I have known many Scandinavian expats who couldn't wait to escape the linear, flat nature of their society. Apparently there is a big "tall poppy" syndrome there.

The UK really is a strange place. I think that's why I always was drawn to it. It's quite a scary yet freeing place. I think what makes it terrible also makes it great but I can't put my finger on it.