To think my child is going to be the child everyone else avoids?

You have some great advice but just to prove that things can get better my DD had a petition written by a group at a particular weekly club to ban her as she was so disruptive and boisterous. She was 2 at the time. She has grown into a lovely lady, sometimes struggles with relationships with people (but don’t we all to some degree?), but has a small knit group of friends and is thriving at a top university. We enjoy time together, hugs and friendship. For her it was about communication and avoiding certain foods and drinks that triggered the worst in her. One brand of fruit flavoured drinks I worked out the blackcurrant ones were fine but the Orange drinks turned her into a devil child.

Are you all suggesting to check for neurodiversity on a three year old?

Until a child has had a chance to mature I wouldn't suspect neurodiversity at all. The social skills need to be learned but some three year olds are LOUD, energetic, physical.

They need lots of exercise and others can sit around doing quiet activities for hours 🤷‍♀️

Until a level of maturity is reached around age 7 I wouldn't be happy to diagnose anything

@beinghonestherenow this are my 2p:

• make a list of what you allow and what is off limits
• stick to enforcing it every time
• don't get emotional
• NEVER give attention to bad behaviour
• remove from situation if dangerous
• reward good behaviour rigorously
• stick to a clear structure, routine
• get him lots of daily exercise
• (team) sport as soon as possible
• as little screens as possible!
• give him responsibilities, jobs, tasks, let him make himself useful
• get yourself a break!

I’m surprised at some of the answers on here. To me, this sounds very typical of a three year old with a new sibling taking up all of his mums attention. I think the advice of consistent 1:1 time with you every week is a good shout if you can get your DH to take DD for a while. You sound burnt out OP and I get it. I found the first year of having my second horrendous because it felt impossible to balance both kids needs. It does get better.

The only thing I’ll say on the ND front is to not worry about professionals not taking your seriously later down the line if you did raise concerns now. I actually think it helps them if they can say “okay, Jack is now struggling in school and I can see that mum has had concerns about behaviour around 3 and has done XYZ to address some of the more challenging behaviour”. I actually think it would go in your favour to access support as there would be evidence of previous concerns and actions taken. Otherwise you may be fobbed off with “oh try this at home” when actually it’s at the point when your son really could do with professional support.

I say this with zero idea whether your son is ND btw but my DS is two and a half, mildly speech delayed with some quirks and so I’ve also had the whole “oh maybe he’s ND, get him assessed” by some people whilst the professionals have no concerns at this stage. I’ve found it helpful to ignore the “he might be autistic” mentality for now and to just focus on accessing support for what he’s currently struggling with (like speech, turn taking etc) without talking about getting him assessed even though that may come further down the line.

Hi OP, I know you’ve already received a wealth of advice but just wanted to share.
Your DS description mirrors a child we currently have in school, he is older as in Y2 but has been like this since he started in reception. Mum is lovely and has turned up numerous times over the years begging for help as she was unable to cope. He received his diagnosis in Y1. She didn’t want to label him but found it reassuring to have some understanding of why he behaves the way he does. She went from believing she had a ‘horrible child’ to the realisation that he could not help the way he was- more to the point neither could she. No amount of parenting courses or intervention was going to change that.
The child would randomly kick, punch, pull hair, push over any child happily playing-then he would laugh in their faces. He would wee in the playground, he would break heads off flowers, scribble over children’s work/pictures etc. I can honestly say he appeared to have not one redeeming quality. When made to say sorry, he would say it without any sign of empathy. He would continuously lie, not have/need any friends.
Please push for a referral- although may take time you will be in the system.

Please speak again with nursery and ask for an honest account of his general behaviour in that setting. Then you will know if he behaves like this generally or just when he’s with you.

I understand why you don't want to pursue a diagnosis at this time, even if you did they would likely take the watch and wait approach. It's also not any guarantee that you'll get any more support. A lot of the strategies are the same as well anyway, just the behaviours and traits are more significant in ND kids. It sounds like you're having a difficult time right now, and not surprising 3 is a difficult age and with a 10 month old as well.

With hindsight, DS had sensory issues from birth and they have never changed - particularly distress about changing clothes and bathing - all that was mentioned at the assessment, alongside his behaviours as he grew older. Part of it seemed to be that none of this was new, the sensory issues, meltdowns etc had been there from young childhood (and earlier). We were told to expect more than one appointment, but the legwork had already been done and he was diagnosed at the initial appointment.

When DS was put on the waiting list we were told 26mths, but our ALNCo put in a huge amount of effort to get him seen earlier to make sure he had a chance of getting into a specialist ASD Base rather than mainstream - thankfully that effort paid off as he got the place, it's going to be a tough transition, but he would never have coped with mainstream and I think we'd have been back to 0% school attendance when we've worked so hard to get it up to 50-70%.

Anyway - not saying OP shouldn't raise concerns, just that we did but the issues were never outside the norm enough for anything to be done.

Trying to be kind here op but i kinda feel like there's a bit of gap between what you expect a 3 yr old to be like and the vast spectrum of what a normal 3 yr old can be like.

They can be basically quite feral.

Its why so many healthcare professionals are reluctant to diagnose ND in kids this age, there's such a big range of what kids this age are like, a decent chunk genuinely will "outgrow it", others might actually seem calmer/easier at this age and will fall to bits when starting school.

What is very hard about it is that the parenting approaches needed produce essentially no immediate impact - its all a long game, and you have to trust that through repeat, consistent parenting approaches, the messages will eventually start to stick.

I remember crying down phone to my sister when DS was 3 because he ignored bloody everything i asked and appeared to not care about consequences.

She calmly told me to hang in there til he was about 6.

She was right. Somewhere along the way he gradually just turned into a lovely boy.

Temper your expectations of your little one. His behaviour sounds pretty normal for a 3 year old.

If your child is on the autism spectrum that might be why his laugh is unusual to you, or his sense of humour. Also when children are in state of emotional dysregualation this can present as laughter, lack of control and lack of fear. It can be harder to empathise with a child who is neurodivergent if the way they present themselves socially and the way they communicate is unusual. I had to dig deeper to find that with one of my DC as due to being ND they were often gross (smearing poo) or cruel to me. The first was helped a lot by lots of sensory play (slime, sand, play dough) the second by a lot more hugs and quality time. Somebody said to me when they push you away what they really need is for you to get closer. It seems counterintuitive but has been true for us

Ime when you have a new baby the little tot that is the 3year old looks like a hulk who talks and understands what you are saying yet maliciously makes your life miserable despite your best efforts.
Jealousy of the baby is probably a major issue here.
I would disagree that 3year olds need strict discipline -some boundaries yes but give him a break especially if he isn’t hurting other kids at nursery. His DSis is cuddled and loved by DM, whilst he is packed off to nursery.
Hang fire if you can , the baby will grow and develop a probably less than perfect nature and DS will learn to fit in with everyone better before long.

You seem really sure that your child would have high functioning autism if at all. I work in the social care field and have seen countless parents be shocked that their child was diagnosed as low functioning because they met all their milestones and just saw behaviours as a phase. Autism doesnt always look like you would expect. I had to fight for my own sons diagnosis professionals told me there were no signs, I was obsessed and that the issues I'd highlighted would resolve themselves in time. I'm not saying your situation is the same but it's worth getting an assessment of need. I'm sorry you are struggling so much please reach out to anyone close to you, you deserve love and support at this time ❤️

My teen has ADHD and ASD and 3 was the hardest age. No usual strategies worked with DD - did not give a shit about consequences. DD also hated me showing an attention to friends and cousins - so I imagine having a younger sibling in the house would have been very hard.

What helped then (and continues to help is)
Building communication skills (speaking and 'reading people') - it is very frustrating to be 3 and not be able to express yourselves, even if NT. We used a lot of Makaton alongside verbal speech. We also realised that DD generally assumed that she would be told off every time I said her name and simply cannot read faces or cues to assess a person's emotions. So even now there is a lot of explaining my tone - Mum is tired, Mum is cross, Mum is not angry with you etc. The more they can recognise and verbalise their emotions, the better, but this is something DD had therapy to help with when older.

Exercise - keep them busy, and try activities which offer the right sensory input for your child. DD needed a trampoline and from the ages of 3 to about 12 would spend hours bouncing. Other kids like to spin or swing, but it does help them regulate a bit.

Strategies - if you know that the usual ones don't work, forget them. Just find ones that do - distraction, bribery (professionals told me to use this to change a habit that was stuck and said its fine as a parenting approach, as long as its not your main one!). DD would never back down, and the more I went head to head the worse it got. The advice that stuck with me was from The Art of War - do not back your enemy into a corner, they will go down fighting - give them an escape route!! Ultimatums didn't work - an exit route always did.

And finally - the decision to pursue a diagnosis is up to you. I agree, it can be hard and scary to open yourself up to professional scrutiny. The other day it occured to me that now DD is nearing adulthood I don't need to be worried that someone will decide I am a terrible parent and whisk them off.
We got a diagnosis aged 7 - I said to the school that DD probably looks fine, but in two months I am going to ask you about ASD. It worked well as they didn't give a kneejerk reaction and when I did ask they had a lot of examples as to why it would be sensible. Its ok to do in your time, but with waiting lists, assume once you start the process, it will be years before anything happens.

Don't underestimate the power of doing something silly to break yourself out of a rut. Eat pudding for breakfast, wear silly clothes, give yourself a break from the day to day.

Oh and if they're hungry they're horrible. I used to meet DD at the school gates with food and water (wouldn't eat at school) - it was pointless even trying to speak or do anything until she'd eaten.

It does get easier.

@beinghonestherenow No advice from me, just some sympathy and good wishes. It sounds like you're at the end of your tether with frustration, sadness and exhaustion. You're only one person and there is only so much you can do. It would be hard enough having a baby and a toddler without all the extra worry and challenge of your DS's behaviour so it's little wonder you feel overwhelmed. It's brave to admit that things aren't right so please don't be put off posting on MN. From the responses on here, looks like there are many women who have been through similar and come out the other side in a positive way. There's that expression: the days are long but the years are short. Hopefully one day you will look back and if not laugh then at least raise a wry chuckle. If you were my friend I'd be proud of you for getting through the days. All the very best to you.

op

You've received some great advice on this thread, so I won't repeat any of that.

My DS was a horror at that age. I loved him but I sure as hell didn't like him much. I feared for the future. He is 13 now and it is a very different story. He's great. But it took him starting school to turn a corner.

Everything changes, nothing stays the same. Neither of my children (early 20s) are how they were when they were 3, 8, 12 or 18. Yes, there are some basic personality qualities that remain the same but their behaviour has changed. DS was vile at various stages and was a VERY challenging toddler who I found hard to like at times.

Try and praise anything your DS does that is remotely positive, even if it is just drinking fine from his sippy cup. Find something, anything that is ok and praise it. Praise what he does, not who he is. Start small and see where it goes.

Hang in there @beinghonestherenow . Get help if you need it.

That’s interesting. When I went for the parent interview for my DD’s ASD apt (she was 8 at the time) the questions focused very much on her behaviours age 4 to 5. I was told that is standard for the ADI interview.

As it happens, I didn’t have real concerns until she 6, and I do still kick myself for not pushing hard then (school told me she was “fine”, no concerns there) as when my DD had a severe breakdown at 8, I was told that there was a 2 year pathway for ASD/ADHD assessments, and I kept thinking “We would be there by now if I had got her put on it 2 years ago!”.

As it was, she was diagnosed within 7 months of the referral going in.

The thing is with the OP, she has concerns right now. Waiting for reception to see how things go (and it is often year 1 when issues become more apparent, as reception is still so play based) means that things might get a lot worse and then there will still be a wait of years or more if she waits for the NHS.

A SALT assessment could also be requested now & not take quite as long, and things like hearing tests don’t take so many years either.

I had the same worries as you re antidepressants, avoided them for years and years because I absolutely wouldn't have coped with weight gain.

I went on Citalopram in January and I'm so glad I did. No weight gain, but my mood is just SO much better, it's remarkable. I am so much less stressed and snappy with my DD as a result too.

Honestly, I really would give them a try. When I rang the drs and said it was about mental health, they got me in the next day. The dr also suggested he put me down for CBT therapy alongside it too. It was a 6 week course via phone and I could chose the day and times.

But really, for me the gamechanger was the antid's.

Oh, and if you enjoy your wine like I do, I've had no problems there either.

I really would go on some antidepressants for a bit, it won't change your DC's behaviour but they will make you feel so much better which definitely makes the tantrums etc for manageable.

Is there a friend or fellow nursery parent you can arrange a playdate with so you can get some genuine feedback on how he plays and behaves in other settings and with other people, without you around? (I think a family member would be too close, and either pretend it's fine enough or brag about how great they are with kids). You mentioned you don't think the nursery sees everything.

I think it is just jealousy from a baby coming into the picture and he's taking it out on you personally if he's fine with his dad and everywhere else. Could be masking, but probably not if he's at home fine with other parent.

There are major problems in my extended family with people favouring their second child over their first, they don't even seem to realise they do it and now it involves teenagers it's about drugs and getting blackout drunk and disappearing off and no one knowing where they are. Started out incredibly innocently seeming with only the baby getting family pics at Christmas while other child was left to own devices. The good child vs bad child reinforces itself as the "bad" child becomes progressively worse over time and the other can do no wrong (supposedly).

Also have you looked up attachment styles, sounds like it might potentially be anxious-avoidant or fearful-avoidant.

What I also forced myself to do was at bedtime, say out loud to DS 2 or 3 things I'd enjoyed about the day with him or things he did well etc - obviously he didn't know I was racking my brain for things or that I was consciously thinking about this.

But saying something like 'night night, you did so well today with that puzzle, let's have another go tomorrow, you are really good at finding all the pieces oh and thank you for finding that book it was a great choice'

This helped remind me it wasn't all awful and reinforces some positive behaviour.