To think my child is going to be the child everyone else avoids?

All good points. Just one request to parents, please don't ignore their bad behaviour in public.

Speech therapists (SALT) aren’t just for speech delay or impairment, they can help with social communication. i.e how to behave . SALT and occupational therapists can really help.

I had a very difficult 3 year old, who is now a very difficult 14 year old BUT he managed to stay in school and make friends through the help of OT and SALT and community paeds referral which unlocked family therapy via CAMHS.

I paid for the SALT and OT privately. Money well spent.

You seem very rigid and a bit know it all
You cannot know about the autism throughly like an expert would. Your child has behaviour and emotional issues and need help, whether he has ASD or something else. You don't want to go to an expert, you talk about your son being high functioning. So what, high functioning doesn't help with other issues, he/ you need help, which you are unwilling to approach. You seem to look down on people with mental health or development struggles.

Why did you even create this thread if you are so against any advice?

I really feel for you - you sound absolutely exhausted. I’ve been there. It’s certainly not unusual to see this kind of behaviour in 3 years olds and it can be just developmental. My own DD was a nightmare when she was little, never slept, never stopped, had tantrum after tantrum. Things only improved - entirely by chance - when we moved areas and a lovely and supportive lady suggested I keep a food diary. Well I’d just had another baby (after a hellish pregnancy during which I was told I nearly died ), my mother was in hospital miles away ill with cancer, my husband seriously ill (he was very unwell all that year) so I had to run the family business and look after the kids whilst surviving on about 4 hours broken sleep a night - and the very last thing I wanted to do was start a blooming food diary! Certainly there was no one who could help me. So I started with a very simple tick sheet - with a column per day split into sections, eg before breakfast, before lunch, etc. I put a mark into each section when we had a meltdown and it did begin to show - mostly - some kind of a pattern. It turned out she was intolerant to artificial colours (tartrazine and sunset yellow) , to some preservatives found in bread, and especially to some artificial sweeteners. It took some time to work this out of course, and once sorted what a difference, like a switch had been flicked. She suddenly became the loveliest and caring girl, but was 7 by then so it wasn’t an easy first few years.
Later professionally I became team leader for primary aged children excluded from primary school for behavioural issues. Most didn’t have any diagnosis and frankly it wasn’t needed - I dealt with the behaviours - which are a form of communication - that they presented with. I used to get the children no one could cope with - even if they weren’t even living in my catchment area. There was no magic bullet. I had to first start with flooding them with praise. Had to find something - anything - to give them praise ‘I really liked the way you walked into the room’, ‘I can see you are really listening well’ ,’you were so kind to get that book’, anything, because they were so used to hearing negative comments. Anything positive got them a reward - a sticker/tick/ token - and there was a menu of ‘treats’ they could exchange their reward for a treat once they had enough. The youngest I worked with was 4 years old so a bit older, but had a history of exclusion from nursery. Unacceptable behaviour was firstly ‘oh dear, I see you’ve (eg) hit xyz again - did you forget that we use kind hands here?’ This was to give them a chance to reflect on their action. Little ones of course don’t even understand always what they have done, or to control their emotions. (‘I hit xyz by accident’, ‘no. I saw you hit xyz on purpose’, ‘no it was an accident. I didn’t mean to hit them. It just happened when I couldn’t help it’. ) Penalties then increased incrementally, the first being (if needed) would be time out (maximum 1 minute per year of age). They each had a visual timetable for the day and the day ran on clearly structured lines.
It took time and careful planning but all made great progress, and by no means were all later diagnosed as ND. Several went on to be very successful, some even won scholarships to public schools which shows how much they had improved. Several became prefects with a mainstream school. I only ever lost 1, who we did have to exclude for violence to others, but there were some very exceptional circumstances involved, and I was winning with that one until the family had a family emergency. So either way the future may not be as black as some might make out.
However all this takes energy. My concern is more for you. I remember all too well just how grim it was going through that time and surviving minute by minute. It sounds like you need someone to give you some TLC. Is there anyone who could give you some ‘me time’ - a day at the spa, or a day off sometime? Even a few hours off may help. I know it’s easier said than done. Certainly I had no one - but hormones being out, lack of sleep, being overwhelmed all make things seem so much worse. You feel overwhelmed and desperate to escape. Once you are feeling better things will fall into perspective better. I do hope this is helpful and that you can get some support for you, and that you soon see the other side of the coin with your little boy. My very best wishes and thoughts go to you both.

Speech therapy may be a good call (and doesn’t mean ND at all) is he large for his age DS was and it was a terrible stage

@beinghonestherenow In that scenario, I'd take the child out of the dining room

My strategies are -

(1) focus on the behaviour you want, as this gives clear direction and is easier to praise eg "sit on the floor / well done for sitting on the floor" works better than "don't climb on the table (vague, unclear what you actually do want) / well done for not climbing on the table (sounds a weird thing to say)"

(2) actions have consequences, but the consequences are age appropriate / relate to the poor behaviour eg "I asked you to sit on the floor, you climbed on the table, so we're going to have to leave the dining room now to keep you safe" is better than "you climbed on the table = no TV for a week"

(3) consistent boundaries. Children push back & test what they can get away with, but consistent boundaries help them to feel safe and secure

(4) sometimes, ignore the bad behaviour. Don't reward it with attention. Ignore the cheek, praise the polite. (Obviously, not appropriate if it's a safety issue)

(5) no shouting. Children copy what they see

But, TBH, I think it's good you're aware of the issue, so you can address it. Far better than thinking everything's great when it's not

I think you’ve said you have a new baby to look after. This situation with your 3 year old must be very tiring for you. It sounds to me like the 3 year old is playing up for attention (and also just because 3 year olds have very big emotions), can they go to nursery full time? Then you could arrange one on ones with your 3 year old at the weekend. I found our 3 year old didn’t act up in settings they were unfamiliar with, so would drag them all over London to random and obscure museums, was regularly amazed by how angelic the little devil would be in front of other people (it was sometimes galling). Keep them moving, is my friends advice for naughty kids. I do appreciate that is a lot of effort on your part and you sound like you could do with a bloody lie down.

Out of interest, what are both your parenting styles like?

my kid was a nightmare at 3. I got a lot of expensive counselling, which helped me. He eventually was diagnosed with ASD - which led to precisely zero support, but did make him feel more secure in himself.

the main thing I wanted to say was that my son is now an absolutely delightful teenager. Don’t give up on him, or yourself x

Hi OP, I’ve read most of your replies. Just wanted to say that 3 is a shit age regardless of ND or not. Kids develop and change. I’ve had some many shit times and problems with my kids that I’ve wondered how to resolve but in the end they just grew out of it. I have two kids (with additional needs but they only became readily apparent in one on starting school nursery - I sought a diagnosis at that point). But it won’t be you that’s the issue. It is ok to feel like you hate your kid and want to leave. Emotions like that are normal it’s just most people don’t talk about it.

i don’t really have much advice but I hear you, I really think it’ll get easier, then harder, then easier but on a trend of generally easier. You’re in the thick of it now with two young kids and challenging ones at that.

my only advice is if there is anything you can do to look after yourself at all please do that. With challenging children the number one priority needs to be good self care for the parents.

@beinghonestherenow - my heart goes out to you - you are exhausted, frustrated and overwhelmed. I just wish I could give you a massive hug.

I had PND after each of my three dses were born, but in my case, it was secondary to clinical depression that was, at that point, undiagnosed - but I do know how dark your thoughts can be. You are beating yourself up so much - I understand that, because I do it myself (I sometimes say that I put myself down, to save others the bother of doing it for me), but was brought to a halt when my therapist (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) said it was so hurtful to hear how unkindly I spoke about myself.

I still do it - but I am getting better at stopping myself. You are doing an amazing job as a mum, in difficult circumstances, and even if no-one else is noticing this, you need to. Be kind to yourself - both mentally and physically. A previous poster suggested gut bacteria supplements - I have read about these being beneficial in depression too. It might be worth taking a vitamin and mineral supplement - as a busy mum, I'm willing to bet that you come well down the list when it comes to looking after yourself, so a supplement might help boost things a bit.

When you find yourself beating yourself up for your perceived 'failings', practise stopping yourself, and saying something nice instead - I know that isn't easy, but practise makes perfect - or better, at least.

If I can help any more - or if you just want an understanding ear - I promise no judgement, just support - just message me.

Is he behind in his speech? My son didn't start nursery until he was 3 and 3 months, so I know he was three when we were getting the reports home of him hitting other children. The nursery identified he was not where he should be with his talking and recommended speech therapy support. Once he was able to express himself better the violence seemed to fall away. He was a very sweet 7 year old now.

Is he behind in his speech? My son didn't start nursery until he was 3 and 3 months, so I know he was three when we were getting the reports home of him hitting other children. The nursery identified he was not where he should be with his talking and recommended speech therapy support. Once he was able to express himself better the violence seemed to fall away. He was a very sweet 7 year old now.

A cousin and a niece were both horrible children, my cousin dragged my younger brother around the playground and called him rag doll. She was demanding with her parents - although she was fine with me. She got whatever she wanted, when she wanted it. My niece was horrible to her little brother, I didn’t see what she was like with other kids but her brother was four years younger and she regularly physically attacked him. Both these awful children turned into lovely teenagers and adults.

OP - haven't RTFT but have read a bit, plus your responses.

Sadly I don't have any useful things to add but just wanted to say yes, it's fine to use your own judgement about what to do, asking for advice doesn't mean you have to follow it slavishly when you've considered it carefully and decided it's not for you! You're your DS's mum, you know him and love him best.

Also it sounds fucking hard.💐

Some people on here are just arsey, much more so these days IMHO. Please try to ignore them as it’s just going to feed into the negative spiral.

I think the thing I have struggled with most is that it feels so lonely having a child like this. Finding even one person who gets it is incredible and gives you such a lift. You really are not alone.

It could be simply a normal 3 year old phase relating to his new sibling and differences in parenting between his parents and how they react or it could be something else.
at the moment it is tricky to actually differentiate between the two and if it is the latter age and schooling with bring that into focus so I agree any discussions on that are later

but there are things you can do - OP if you feel you may be depressed and need a doctors appt for mental health that will help. As will your reactions to him it sounds as if you have struggled to bond and some help there

and you seem to have an underlying theme of issues with your husband I know you say you can’t do anything there why?

I understand what you are saying, OP. There is a good chance there's nothing there ND-wise, it is hard to tell at such a young age, and of course in that case, he would not be diagnosed.

It's clear that you don't want to take him to the GP anyway (although you might get some support and advice even if he is not diagnosed with anything - nothing ventured nothing gained - but that's my opinion).

But in this case, I'm wondering, what kind of advice are you looking for here, and what do you think you should do?

'I’m surprised at some of the answers on here. To me, this sounds very typical of a three year old with a new sibling taking up all of his mums attention.'

I'm not. You can't discuss child behaviour on here without posters insisting your child is ND because their child is ND and they displayed some of the same behaviours.

I take Sertraline for depression - I don't get sad and weepy, I get angry and find myself being irritable and having no patience with the children. It wouldn't do any harm to discuss with your GP, it will make a world of difference if there is something there on your end. I used to wake up every day and fuck I can't be arsed parenting today.