To think doing a PhD with young children is impossible?

My husband started a PhD at Oxbridge. He had me being supportive at home and it was tbh not fun with young children. We decided it wasn’t compatible in the end and he stepped into work. It was just always there, always hanging over for him and so hard round family life. I have a friend who did it, but dh just decided the sacrifice was too much

I think in general people handle the stress of PhDs differently and so it's hard to advise on the coping with a PhD/family aspect. It's important to be organised and to have a good supervisor and family support network. You could at least give it a try and in the worst case, if you really can't cope, then you could quit? I'd just give it your best shot and take the opportunity, if it doesn't work out then at least you tried. Good luck.

Thank you @Harara I really appreciate that supportive post.

I was feeling I shouldn’t wade in as a third party, but since you have done - I totally disagree tbh. @Piglet89 is entitled to talk about her experience and perspective. As she’s said herself it’s really up to the OP to decide whether it’s relevant and useful or not. It’s hard not to think that the reason people are responding so vehemently is that as busy mothers who are trying to do it all they feel very personally attacked and threatened by the suggestion that it’s possible that kids in that situation could potentially sometimes feel a bit neglected. I totally understand that won’t be what anyone wants to hear, and it may very well be it isn’t true of their own kids, but it’s not a good reason to attack Piglet for talking about what was true for her. Fair enough to point out if you feel the solution is more childcare and partner support, but the implied sneer at Piglet for finding things stressful with one child and a part-time job was also nasty and unnecessary.

@Piglet89 - @Craicbaby 's posts are neither "insulting and unnecessarily aggressive".
They are spot on.

Mine are 7 and 5, I'm in the last year of a 4 year PhD, which entirely lab based (biomedical sciences). It's doable, but requires treating it like a job, and being super organised. I can't wait to finish though

I know very few people who recall any bits of doing a PhD as fun! I started my PHD pregnant, completed in 4.5 years having had 3 kids (and a few losses). It felt impossible at times. Mine was my job (paid) and had in person tasks (incl. lecturing commitments). Currently I’m on my first mat leave without PHD requirements and it feels like a huge relief. It’s been worth it but it was hard.

Things that helped; working out when I “think” best. For me - the daily grind of night wakes and being mum meant I was sometimes spending hours I didn’t have at a desk unable to write or read productively. Getting up early OR staying up late suited me better for the some parts. And I’d use the time I had childcare to sleep/do house work/prep food instead.
Finding a space to work outside the house - using a uni campus (not my own which was too far away), local libraries etc. basically creating a workspace and routine.
Setting myself deadlines in advance of when aspects were dues rewarding myself if I met them and actually stopping to reflect on why not if I didn’t and addressing those reasons (eg. My eldest dd has a chronic illness. We couldn’t afford financially to share the leave to look after her BUT knowing there were patterns helped me recognize I didn’t to pace my submissions differently/commit to less at a specific time of the year).
Mine weren’t school age at the time: I certainly couldn’t have done it trying to fit it in from 9:15-3pm (ie around school) but to be fair - in my field - that wouldn’t be a full time job either! Are you realistic with the time you can give it? To work that, do you need more support from friends or family? Partner? I initially hoped to submit in three years and admitting to myself that that wasn’t timeline that would work for what I wanted for my family (ie to be available for them and actually have one family day a week with my dh and kids) and restructuring my timeline of submission - in line with that was the best thing I did. As it stopped me always feeling like I was failing at all three- work, PhD and family - and helped me feel ok about the balance.

I did mine, Oxbridge, and had dd in my 2nd year. There was no official way to go PT in those days so I intermitted for 2 years but actually just went part time. I also had a grant and used some of that for a couple of nursery days in the last year and dh took over completely on Saturdays. (I had some data collection challenges so the extra time was a good thing in any case.)

These days there should definitely be a PT option if you need one and if you have a grant then you could buy yourself some extra childcare - afterschool childminder for a day or two for example. And can you partner give you time?

There should also be some sort of group/society for student parents that can be helpful if only to share issues and maybe trade some childcare.

I was already in it when I had dd so I was determined to finish it. If you've got funding - would it help if it could be delayed until your 4 year-old starts school? I'm sure it can be done - I've seen others do it - as long as you are committed to getting it done.

She’s under stress because, as I and several others have pointed out, she has a FT job she is trying to do in ‘school day’ hours with no childcare. Her partner needs to do more and/or they need wraparound care.

The fact that you seem to struggle with no having had sufficient attention from a studying mother and to raise one child on a PT job is totally irrelevant to an OP who is stressed because she’s trying to do a FT job without adequate childcare.

@Craicbaby I think it’s quite clear what the childhood memory illustrates. Arguably, it does it more aptly than my elaborating posts.

However, your (quite insulting and unnecessarily aggressive) responses to my point bear the silver lining of at least instigating that elaboration. If my posts provide some pause for thought for the OP, I am glad. If not, she can disregard.

However, the OP already seems to be under considerable stress (she mentions having cried one weekend). An overly stressed out parent is not ideal, and I say that as someone who is often stressed by parenting myself and really tries to curb that - not always successfully.

Raising young children is very hard and demands a lot of energy. I have only one and a 4 day a week job, and I find it very challenging.

So is completing a PhD. Really, only the OP knows in her heart whether she can really manage both without either her or her family suffering detriment.

You realise that it needs to be approached as a FT job but then don't have childcare after school hours like you would if in a FT Job. That is why you are having to do split hours and use your evenings. Your partner will need to accept that they have to take on more at weekends to enable you to work too.

It is doable with the right support and right organisation and mindset.

So why not say that? Rather than a passive-aggressive childhood memory? A DPhil is a FT job. Most children will have one if not both parents working FT.

I started my PhD child free and full time, ended it part time 3 kids later. If you want to do it full time it sounds like you need wrap around care as the school day isn't long enough. Me and my DH split sickness cover equally. Good luck, it is hard and I definitely had times where I cried and nearly packed it in but I'm so proud that I did it.

My perspective (to which I’m entitled) is that something has to give in this situation: and it may be attention on the children, who are still young.

People are lambasting me only because that perspective may be inconvenient, but it is something the OP may want to consider.

Handled poorly and with a lack of awareness: yes - it may impact her children. It’s something that’s worth being aware of. So, it’s relevant, however inconvenient that may be.

For heaven’s sake, it was a deeply whiny and derogatory comment to post on a thread from someone who wants actual advice about an ongoing DPhil situation. What possible relevance does the fact that you appear to not have recovered from a parent doing an MA in your own childhood have to the OP? I’d suggest you resolve your own issues about not feeling heard. Unless your intention is to suggest to the OP that she should drop out immediately in case her children suffer from her saying ‘Wait a second’.

@Craicbaby if you are in the group of people who have done a PhD with kids, you’ll presumably be bright enough to recognise it’s quite a leap to claimthat my post equates to demanding my parent’s exclusive focus be on me.

However, it is a lovely example of the Mumsnet habit of reducing a complicated situation via some tidy “all or nothing” thinking.

Imagine having a parent whose exclusive focus wasn’t on you.

It is possible but yes it is bloody hard...and I don't know how you'd do it without a supportive co-parent or additional help with childcare. Like with any job, which in effect is what it is.

I did mine with young children, I started when they were 3 and 5.
My husband worked away and we had no family nearby. It can be done, but is hard work splitting yourself. I was lucky in that I didn't have to work, so that gave me extra time when they were both in school.

My mother did a masters while I was still a child: it’s a childhood in which I remember often asking her questions only to be ignored or “wait a second”. Not ideal.

I treat it like a job but the school days are so short and invariably I get a call from nursery asking me to collect for one reason or another

So you aren't treating it like a job. You are expecting to work short days and seem to accept that you are the default parent when there is a parenting issue.

It absolutely isn't "impossible" to do a PhD with young children.
We had 2 when dh did his PhD - well, one when he started and 3 when he was doing his first post-doc.
Was it hard ? Yes
Was it impossible - clearly not.
Has he then worked with, and then gone on to support and supervise other people doing PhDs with young dc ? Yes - loads.

The advice I got when I considered going on to do a PhD was to really think about why you are doing it and what you want to get out of it.

Unless it's something you are truly, truly passionate about and are totally willing to spend years of your live obsessing over, to the sacrifice of just about everything else, then don't do it. It's not the same as a job, no matter how hard you try to treat it as such.

I've just chucked mine in. I've been doing it part-time with little progress. It always comes last behind the rest of my job (I'm what used to be called a teaching fellow), kids, home etc. Crucially, I just wasn't that interested in the topic. I don't think I'll ever be interested enough in any topic to look at it in that depth.

It reached the point where any possible career benefits just weren't worth the drag on my mental health and self esteem.

I'm so relieved.

I do know people who've done it, but you need to treat it like a job (so ft childcare and if you have a partner they need to be sharing the load) and have a passion for the subject.

Are you doing it full-time? Is there the option to move to part-time, and/or ask for an interruption of study if and when you feel you need one? I think a friend of mine took a couple of those (not because of kids) and ultimately completed. I think it is doable but I don’t think you should feel you have to drive yourself into the ground or be miserable to complete it. You deserve to enjoy your research and time with your children. There can be a martyr mentality around PhDs (and I’d imagine that might especially be true at Oxbridge though I didn’t do my PhD there), don’t buy into that. I’d be assertive about letting your supervisors and funder know what you need, obvs show that you’re organised and working hard but don’t feel you need to apologise for wanting a manageable life. If your supervisor is someone unsympathetic to or clueless about what it’s like to juggle research and kids, that might be an argument for looking around for another supervisor or at least a second supervisor.

Hopefully you’ll get useful tips here but I’d also be asking around (if you haven’t already) to see if there’s anyone in your college and/or faculty and discipline who has recently done a PhD in your situation and how they managed it. Oxbridge can be pretty specific in how they handle things so I don’t know how useful non-Oxbridge advice will be.

My mum did one with 3 DC aged 11, 8 and 5 when she started it (15, 12 and 9 when she finished). Being the eldest, I babysat my younger siblings a lot and was slightly resentful about how much she worked.

She picked us up from school, made dinner, then worked late. She often worked weekends too. The long hours never stopped and she still work 9am till 8-9pm most days, 20 years later.