Page 2 | Don’t want a second limited holiday with friend.

Borntorun123 · 2024-04-20T05:27:54+00:00

NC for this. I will start by saying I am lucky enough to have 3-4 budget holidays/ short breaks a year. My last one was with an old friend who has mobility problems. She can manage most things but walking is very limited. I willingly carried bags, pushed a wheelchair when necessary ( longer distances than she couldn’t walk in airports, etc), offered her first choice of seating, popped to shops for items, did everything I could to make things as comfortable and easy for her as possible. She said that she had a good time and I am pleased. On the other hand I found that the holiday was so limited that I felt guilty and frustrated. I felt sorry for her, and very much appreciated my own physical health, but I constantly felt restricted. I run every day and was still able to do that, but whilst out saw places I would have liked to spend time exploring, or nice looking restaurants for a long dinner, etc. So many things to see and do. Apart from travel by taxi to a few carefully chosen places, we could only go to one place on the beach where sun beds were provided ( charged) , and just one restaurant. I can’t imagine how frustrated my friend is with being so immobile. I know I am very lucky. She has now suggested going away together again. We’ve only been home a few weeks and it wouldn’t be until Autumn. She is looking to me to arrange everything as before. It took a lot of research, trying to ascertain what roads and paths are like, exact proximity to attractions, contacting property owners with several questions, etc. and despite my best efforts a few things still didn’t go to plan, which were commented upon. I don’t want to go away with her again, at least not for the second time in a year. As well as being restricted it cost me significantly more due to taxis ( I rode in the taxi so of course split costs), it was always me popping to the shops for minor purchases, which individually seemed too trivial in cost to split, but actually totted up to a significant sum. AIBU to tell her no? She couldn’t holiday alone, whereas I plan to do that for my next trip.

Janiie · 23/04/2024 08:52

'I say this as I think part of the issue is your own attitude. You could not ask her for money. You could not leave her and do your own thing. You agreed to go to the one neach and restaurant throughout the holiday your friend wanted to go to.I really think you need to work on your assertiveness and communication skills. Your friend probably thought you were happy to have a holiday lying on the beach all day as you did not communicate that you wanted anything different.'

Absolutely and really sickening to read some of the comments. Now we're 'cranks' for standing up for a disabled person being criticised on here.

The op isn't going away with her again, we know this. She shouldn't ever have agreed in the first place, the 'friend's' limitations we know weren't a surprise.

None of this is the disabled person's fault and I hope anyone reading this who can't walk miles and skip around chatting to locals isn't put off by a holiday abroad. Just choose your travel companions very wisely.

Theuglynaillady · 23/04/2024 07:12

No one is being punished for anything, no need for the dramatics.

pikkumyy77 · 23/04/2024 02:48

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Original poster

Borntorun123 · 23/04/2024 00:00

NoisySnail · 22/04/2024 23:54

@Borntorun123 so she does not need help to turn over in the sun bed?
And you could have left her sitting in a cafe while you went a long hike?
I understand that many people may not feel confident getting out of a sun lounger. This is the case for many older people with limitations such as arthritis or just stiffness after lying down for a while. My mother was like this. But I would never have thought for a minute that I had to stay with her all the time, rather than spending some time doing my own thing. On holidays I would spend some time with my mum, and the help her to a cafe, get her settled in, and then go off and do things by myself.

I say this as I think part of the issue is your own attitude. You could not ask her for money. You could not leave her and do your own thing. You agreed to go to the one neach and restaurant throughout the holiday your friend wanted to go to.
I really think you need to work on your assertiveness and communication skills. Your friend probably thought you were happy to have a holiday lying on the beach all day as you did not communicate that you wanted anything different.

I really don’t care what you think

OP posts:

NoisySnail · 22/04/2024 23:54

@Borntorun123 so she does not need help to turn over in the sun bed?
And you could have left her sitting in a cafe while you went a long hike?
I understand that many people may not feel confident getting out of a sun lounger. This is the case for many older people with limitations such as arthritis or just stiffness after lying down for a while. My mother was like this. But I would never have thought for a minute that I had to stay with her all the time, rather than spending some time doing my own thing. On holidays I would spend some time with my mum, and the help her to a cafe, get her settled in, and then go off and do things by myself.

I say this as I think part of the issue is your own attitude. You could not ask her for money. You could not leave her and do your own thing. You agreed to go to the one neach and restaurant throughout the holiday your friend wanted to go to.
I really think you need to work on your assertiveness and communication skills. Your friend probably thought you were happy to have a holiday lying on the beach all day as you did not communicate that you wanted anything different.

Original poster

Borntorun123 · 22/04/2024 23:43

NoisySnail · 22/04/2024 23:21

Paid carers travel abroad with people all the time. It is not cheap. Or disabled travel companies provide paid carers at particular resorts.
@Borntorun123 you must have realised that someone who needs this level of care would need a lot of care on holiday? Not being able to turn over in bed without help or get in and out of bed is a severe level of disability and would have carers throughout a normal day.

Ok, I will have a final try to clarify, even though the event has already passed.
My friend has PIP high rate care and mobility from a government not known for its generosity in this area. Of course she has some limitations.
I said in my first post that she manages most things, and that is the case.
She doesn’t have regular carers. There are some things she struggles with and I knew about these before we travelled, have sometimes helped her with them in the past, and was prepared to help with them on holiday. I didn’t mention these as they weren’t an issue.
I am not her carer, and have never regarded or described myself as such.
She can get in and out of bed by herself, but there is a lot of difference getting out of a sturdy double bed onto a firm floor than from a flimsy sun lounger onto sand. No one with severe mobility problems wants to fall, so I helped her, as anyone would.

OP posts:

Theuglynaillady · 22/04/2024 23:34

Needanewname42 · 22/04/2024 23:15

@Theuglynaillady
Would the carers want to / be able to holiday with her?
How much would it be to pay a carer for 24/7 care?
Legally can a carer be 'on-duty' 24/7?
Can a personal carer work abroad? How does that affect insurance, work permits, income-tax, VAT is it classes as a UK service or overseas?

I doubt taking a paid carer will be that easy to get round the paperwork and that's before you consider the cost of paying for both the Op and the carer.

I have no idea- my spouse is my carer so I’ve never had to deal with employing one. I know people do have carers travel with them- I imagine it’s incredibly expensive.

I just meant that if the friend can’t even turn herself while lying down she must have a high level of need, and therefore have carers who would have at least been able to let the op know what would be needed while they were away.

Seems like the op was a bit naive about what she was taking on- although you would think that the friend would have put her in the picture in advance.

I certainly wouldn’t travel relying on someone who didn’t know what my needs are and wasn’t practiced in providing that care- I don’t know anyone who would, it would be horrendously stressful.

NoisySnail · 22/04/2024 23:21

Paid carers travel abroad with people all the time. It is not cheap. Or disabled travel companies provide paid carers at particular resorts.
@Borntorun123 you must have realised that someone who needs this level of care would need a lot of care on holiday? Not being able to turn over in bed without help or get in and out of bed is a severe level of disability and would have carers throughout a normal day.

Needanewname42 · 22/04/2024 23:15

@Theuglynaillady
Would the carers want to / be able to holiday with her?
How much would it be to pay a carer for 24/7 care?
Legally can a carer be 'on-duty' 24/7?
Can a personal carer work abroad? How does that affect insurance, work permits, income-tax, VAT is it classes as a UK service or overseas?

I doubt taking a paid carer will be that easy to get round the paperwork and that's before you consider the cost of paying for both the Op and the carer.

Theuglynaillady · 22/04/2024 23:01

Borntorun123 · 22/04/2024 20:50

Another incorrect piece of speculation, but you are far from alone in this. It’s a shame that you, and others feel the need to resort to insults.
I could not have left my friend lying on a sunbed for hours as she needed help getting on and off, and sometimes with turning, as well as with applying sun block. She also felt vulnerable alone because of her mobility problems so of course I wasn’t going to leave her.
This holiday is over. It won’t be repeated. My friend knows and has accepted this.
All of the speculation and incorrect assumptions
are now really pointless.

Show quote history

Who does her usual care? Is it agency staff? It seems like her usual carer would be the best bet for a holiday companion for her… it seems odd that she would travel without them.

Theuglynaillady · 22/04/2024 22:55

pikkumyy77 · 22/04/2024 21:17

Well thats a very odd way of looking at human relationships. We are interdependent and also independent to varying degrees in every relationship. A physical or mental disability does not necessitate dependence or indulgence or special care by a friend/lover/parent though it may do. And plenty of non disabled people also enjoy interdependence or dependence within a relationship though that might be situational.

Disabled people aren’t necessarily needing more dependence or support from their traveling partners than non disabled people. Depends on the disability, surely? And the degree of skill or other supports (technologies) that might be available to manage.

If I have bad eyesight but speak fluent french and my husband has good eyesight but doesn’t who is “disabled “ on our trip to Paris?

I can’t get over the number of posters here who speak a seemingly pro-disabled language while ascribing to the most abelist and derogatory view of disabled people.

Show quote history

Well thats a very odd way of looking at human relationships

Viewing disabled people as holding able bodied people back? I agree, it is- somehow it’s a very popular one on mumsnet. See also-

disabled children in mainstream schools taking up too much time and being disruptive

Wheelchair users taking too long to get on and off busses making people late

disabled people making noise in restaurants when others want quiet

Wheelchair users being ‘entitled’ if they want to use the wheelchair space on the bus when someone doesn’t fancy folding their pram

carers getting free/cheap entrance to attractions not being fair

blue badge holders parking in p&c spaces if no Bb spaces available meaning no parents can possibly go to the shops

etc etc etc…

This is the usual attitude to disabled people from many many posters on mumsnet.

Not relevant examples to this case obviously, but I mention them as illustrations to the point I was making in the post you quoted-

disabled people are an inconvenience or an afterthought… and frequently told that actually our experience isn’t relevant to the discussion so can we just shut up about it.

We are acceptable when we are in a state of over coming, or making up. Always going the extra mile to make sure we aren’t in the way of an able bodied person.

If I have bad eyesight but speak fluent french and my husband has good eyesight but doesn’t who is “disabled “ on our trip to Paris?

Not speaking French is not akin to a disability and it’s silly to imply it is.

Original poster

Borntorun123 · 22/04/2024 22:46

BlueLimeRun · 22/04/2024 21:04

@Borntorun123 ignore- an infuriating few who don’t have a balanced view.

Yes, actually you are 100% correct.

OP posts:

wombat15 · 22/04/2024 22:36

NoisySnail · 22/04/2024 22:07

@Borntorun123 you are majorly drip feeding. If your friend can not turn over by herself or get off and on the sun bed, then presumably she needs help to get to bed, get up, get dressed and washed? And help getting into and out of a taxi?
That presents a very different picture from your OP where you talked about pushing her wheelchair in the airport and fetching snacks.

That is what I was thinking.

Catsmere · 22/04/2024 22:20

Borntorun123 · 22/04/2024 20:50

Another incorrect piece of speculation, but you are far from alone in this. It’s a shame that you, and others feel the need to resort to insults.
I could not have left my friend lying on a sunbed for hours as she needed help getting on and off, and sometimes with turning, as well as with applying sun block. She also felt vulnerable alone because of her mobility problems so of course I wasn’t going to leave her.
This holiday is over. It won’t be repeated. My friend knows and has accepted this.
All of the speculation and incorrect assumptions
are now really pointless.

Show quote history

Well said, OP. Puts a different light on this non-holiday. Glad you won't be repeating it.

Catsmere · 22/04/2024 22:11

EdithStourton · 22/04/2024 15:07

I'm one of the 4%, but only just, as I can also see your POV, and I do think your friend is being a bit of a CF. She needs to learn to use a computer for her own long-term independence (online shopping etc), so not only is foisting all the organising onto you isn't fair of her, it's also very shortsighted.

Also, if she has mobility problems, she needs to do what she can to minimise their impact eg using a wheelchair more (which should also make the holiday more fun for her), and make sure she isn't expecting you to pick up more than your fair share of the costs because you're the one who can nip to the shops.

In fact, the more I think about this, the more I think that the issue was less her disability itself than her attitude, which is that you should arrange everything, run about on her behalf, spend your money on her behalf and then revise your approach to organise a better trip for her next time. She seems to have very little self-awareness.

You've said you've tried to have a conversation with her... Could you perhaps explain what the issues her and say you'd be willing to go away with her again in a year if SHE can plan and book the trip, and that a couple of other issues are sorted out?

Yes, this! It's all down to her attitude and what that ended up imposing on OP.

NoisySnail · 22/04/2024 22:07

@Borntorun123 you are majorly drip feeding. If your friend can not turn over by herself or get off and on the sun bed, then presumably she needs help to get to bed, get up, get dressed and washed? And help getting into and out of a taxi?
That presents a very different picture from your OP where you talked about pushing her wheelchair in the airport and fetching snacks.

PorridgeEater · 22/04/2024 22:00

Borntorun123 · 22/04/2024 20:50

Another incorrect piece of speculation, but you are far from alone in this. It’s a shame that you, and others feel the need to resort to insults.
I could not have left my friend lying on a sunbed for hours as she needed help getting on and off, and sometimes with turning, as well as with applying sun block. She also felt vulnerable alone because of her mobility problems so of course I wasn’t going to leave her.
This holiday is over. It won’t be repeated. My friend knows and has accepted this.
All of the speculation and incorrect assumptions
are now really pointless.

Show quote history

Well said OP

NoisySnail · 22/04/2024 21:33

@pikkumyy77 people here are talking about more severe disability. Having to take taxis places is not as complex a disability as some, but it is limiting.

pikkumyy77 · 22/04/2024 21:17

Theuglynaillady · 22/04/2024 19:36

See, it’s this attitude that disabled people should always be bending over backwards and giving 110% in order not to ‘hold back’ the able bodied people around them that gets wearing after a while.

It’s like we’re expected to always be trying to make it up to able bodied people for being less than, an inconvenience or a burden. Or even just less ideal than others.

Show quote history

Well thats a very odd way of looking at human relationships. We are interdependent and also independent to varying degrees in every relationship. A physical or mental disability does not necessitate dependence or indulgence or special care by a friend/lover/parent though it may do. And plenty of non disabled people also enjoy interdependence or dependence within a relationship though that might be situational.

Disabled people aren’t necessarily needing more dependence or support from their traveling partners than non disabled people. Depends on the disability, surely? And the degree of skill or other supports (technologies) that might be available to manage.

If I have bad eyesight but speak fluent french and my husband has good eyesight but doesn’t who is “disabled “ on our trip to Paris?

I can’t get over the number of posters here who speak a seemingly pro-disabled language while ascribing to the most abelist and derogatory view of disabled people.

BlueLimeRun · 22/04/2024 21:04

@Borntorun123 ignore- an infuriating few who don’t have a balanced view.

Original poster

Borntorun123 · 22/04/2024 20:50

NoisySnail · 22/04/2024 19:39

I agree. My DH is disabled. We do things together and I do things by myself. No one was making OP lie on the beach all day. She could easily have said I will join you in the beach ion the morning then after lunch I am going a long hike.
Honestly OP seems incredibly wet and then is blaming her friend for this.

Another incorrect piece of speculation, but you are far from alone in this. It’s a shame that you, and others feel the need to resort to insults.
I could not have left my friend lying on a sunbed for hours as she needed help getting on and off, and sometimes with turning, as well as with applying sun block. She also felt vulnerable alone because of her mobility problems so of course I wasn’t going to leave her.
This holiday is over. It won’t be repeated. My friend knows and has accepted this.
All of the speculation and incorrect assumptions
are now really pointless.

OP posts:

Theuglynaillady · 22/04/2024 20:21

LemonPeonies · 22/04/2024 20:12

The "scenario" as you say, the friend is lacking comprehension and didn't take responsibility for herself, expecting op to. Didn't realise I had to spell it out.

You can’t have it both ways-

either she didn’t comprehend (i.e understand) that what she was asking was unreasonable- in which case she has something affecting her social understanding and executive functioning which means she doesn’t understand and can’t help her behaviour- you and the OP think this isn’t the case.

or she is a cf who knew full well she was taking the piss and therefore there isn’t anything wrong with her comprehension, just her attitude.

Theuglynaillady · 22/04/2024 20:14

LemonPeonies · 22/04/2024 20:01

@wombat15 the OP was very clear about having to do all the organising of the holiday to ensure the friend was comfortable, as well as constant shopping trips by herself that she paid for. Then spent her time tied to one place. You may enjoy rallying around after someone on holiday and not having a break yourself, many wouldn't. Perhaps rtft so I don't have to keep repeating myself and answering stupid questions. I have better things to do.

The op didn’t have to do all the organising for the trip- when it was first suggested that she planned them a holiday she CHOSE to do it.

She didn’t say the shopping trips were constant.

She also hasn’t made it clear whether she had to do extra shopping trips or whether the problem was only who payed- presumably the op would have had to go to the shop for herself in any case.

She also hasn’t made it clear whether she was ‘tied to one place’- it’s quite possible that she could have gone wherever she wanted and left her friend to sort herself out at the hotel but chose not to.

wombat15 · 22/04/2024 20:13

LemonPeonies · 22/04/2024 20:01

@wombat15 the OP was very clear about having to do all the organising of the holiday to ensure the friend was comfortable, as well as constant shopping trips by herself that she paid for. Then spent her time tied to one place. You may enjoy rallying around after someone on holiday and not having a break yourself, many wouldn't. Perhaps rtft so I don't have to keep repeating myself and answering stupid questions. I have better things to do.

Apart from going to the shops which she presumably would have done on a solo holiday, I can't see why op did not have a break. I appreciate that she would have liked to have explored by herself and eaten in restaurants by herself but she could have said this. I don't think it up to the friend to anticipate. I am sceptical the holiday required much organisation if they didn't do anything.

LemonPeonies · 22/04/2024 20:12

The "scenario" as you say, the friend is lacking comprehension and didn't take responsibility for herself, expecting op to. Didn't realise I had to spell it out.