What do people on remand in prison do?

No, I just know a fair bit about this topic for various reasons and it's irritating to see people spouting rubbish

@firstpregnancy1 are you an officer?

I've been working in prison a couple of days a week for many decades. I know very well what I am talking about

@60andsomething

Absolute rubbish.

You clearly either don't read the paperwork properly or are missing entire pieces of information.

Those reasons alone simply would not be the one sole reason as to why a person be remanded. It is just not as simple a thing as you're implying.

I imagine you actually know very little about this.

Such an interesting and thought-provoking thread. It really isn't something I have any knowledge of, so have learnt a lot.

As said above, certain crimes rarely result in a guilty verdict, due to the burden of proof, lack of witnesses, it being one person's word against the other, such as rape, domestic violence etc, but sadly there will also be a number of people held who are truly innocent.
I really don't know how the system can ever be improved

Thanks to those with personal experience for their input xx

no - I am basing that information on the paperwork that passes in front of me working in a prison

Those examples alone simply wouldn't result in someone being remanded. There would be more to it. You're basing that on information you are being given by people you know and so have a reason not to tell you the entirety of the situation.

Yes in English law you are either guilty or not guilty. But in terms of the actual truth, what actually happened, there are those found not guilty who actually have committed the crime.

There are so many cases of this. Cases of one word against another. Lack of evidence does not mean that something didn't happen. It means there isn't enough evidence to PROVE that it did happen.

Rape cases especially. Conviction rates are through the floor. Do you really think that every single man accused of rape and FOUND not guilty was actually truly innocent? No. A significant number of accused people for all crime types are found not guilty simply because there is such a high burden of proof.

As a result this means that there are significantly more people who are guilty but found not guilty, compared to the other way round and as such the number of truly innocent people being remanded and then convicted is very low. No statistic can be drawn of this however simply because we have no way of knowing exactly how many people are found not guilty despite having committed the crime.

This is truly awful and definitely an issue that needs tackling.

@Neverpostagain

"
You can say whatever you like, but the statistics say between 30-40% of remand 'prisoners' do not go on to serve a custodial sentence. Either the allegations are dropped or they are found not guilty or they are found guilty of something that doesn't attract a 'further' prison sentence."

This is just simply lumping in too many variables to be a statistic worth considering.

If you can find a statistic that takes out withdrawn allegations, acquittals, and people found guilty not attracting further sentences (which will be because they already served it on remand), then that is a statistic worthy of note.

You need to simply look at the statistics for people on remand who have then gone on to have a trial AND been found not by a jury.

Even that statistic will not be an accurate reflection of true innocence. Yes this country has only innocent or guilty based on the result at court but if you consider the actual truth of what may or may not have happened, there will be a proportion of people found not guilty by jurors who in fact absolutely have committed the crime. And therefore the statistic for what you're actually talking about - is the percentage of people on remand who ACTUALLY ARE innocent, and therefore is unfair that they have spent time on remand, is way way way smaller than the 30-40% you are indicating applies.

And yes there will be a percentage of truly innocent people on remand and that absolutely is truly impactive on their life. But genuinely how do you suggest it done differently. For a person to be charged and remanded in the first place there has to be a significant amount of evidence and history and other factors relating to the persons remand being in place. There is simply no way for a perfect system to exist. A fair trial has to take place and sometimes without someone being on remand the fair trial wouldn't even take place and then that's a miscarriage of justice on the other side.
Similarly, if somebody accused of a crime and not remanded then goes on to commit further,worse offences, whilst on bail, there is public outcry as to a missed opportunity of remanding them which could have prevented something truly awful happening.

As I said this is such a complex matter and there is so so much more to it than just spouting a meaningless statistic

Different prisons have different rules, I the one I worked at had laundry bags so all your stuff was kept together, some prisoners do their own laundry in the showers. As for new underwear they have to buy it, just like if they were on the outside. The woman often wear those tshirt tops. I worked in a men's prison and we did have basics for prisoners but most come with a bag of things.
They also have to buy all their own toiletries, tapes, juices, biscuits. We had a charity that worked along side us and would provide each person with a toiletries bag when they came in. Toothbrush, toothpaste, bar of soap, shower gel, shampoo, comb, can't remember if anything else. If prisoner wants to shave they are given a disposable razor and watched while shaving.

Maybe in your protected world.

In the real world this does happen.

o yes, being homeless, in temporary accommodation, in a BandB, sofa surfing - have also known people remanded in custody for these reasons

You can be remanded in custody for all sorts of reasons that are not your "fault". Such as living with one of the witnesses, or being at a holiday location rather than at home when arrested, or having a previous conviction, or insisting you are innocent!

I have known people remanded in custody for all these reasons

@dreamfield

firstpregnancy1
If you are on remand but totally innocent , you must have done something or acted a particular way at some point in order for the remand application to be approved. Often these are dangerous individuals with no regard for the justice system and I would imagine that all the posters stating what a travesty it is that they are on remand when potentially innocent, would soon change their tune if they had all the facts and knowledge as to why the person was remanded in the first place.

People are not remanded without good reason.

"Oh would those good reasons be similar to the "good reason" that a pregnant woman was sent to a prison for a crime she didn't commit? (Seema Misra)

Has the whole Post Office scandal of hundreds of wrongful convictions and innocent people being imprisoned and having their lives destroyed completely passed you by? How?'"

This is just different and not what the thread was discussing

@Neverpostagain

firstpregnancy1
If you are on remand but totally innocent , you must have done something or acted a particular way at some point in order for the remand application to be approved. Often these are dangerous individuals with no regard for the justice system and I would imagine that all the posters stating what a travesty it is that they are on remand when potentially innocent, would soon change their tune if they had all the facts and knowledge as to why the person was remanded in the first place.

People are not remanded without good reason.

""Bollocks. About 30% of people on remand are released either because the allegations are withdrawn, or they are found not guilty at trial, or they are found guilty of something that does not incur a custodial sentence. Some of the sub postmasters were held on remand -dangerous beasts. '"

These are entirely two separate issues though. Someone's reason for being remanded and the end result are wildly different. People are remanded only if certain criteria is met. One of those criteria is how serious an offence is, but more often than not there are many other factors determining why this is necessary.
The fact that, according to your sources, 30% are released, is completely separate and definitely does not indicate that 30% of people on remand should not be there. Can you really think of no reasons why a victim may withdraw their allegations? It happens a lot and definitely does not mean that a fair conclusion of a persons innocence can be drawn simply because of a withdrawn allegation.

The whole thing is so incredibly complex and there are many many factors at all points it just simply isn't fair to look at it in such a simple way that you have. I'm not by any means saying the system is perfect but I am saying that by and large the vast majority of people on remand are there for good reason .

no one can troll the internet from prison

@Spangletwat all the best for the beginning of CBT tomorrow. I'll be thinking about you as I do my mildly annoying tasks (that seem way less irritating just now than they did before this thread).

CranfordScones simply didn’t say that.

At the time of your post, no-one had said what a travesty it is that they haven’t been convicted yet. Someone said it can be harder because you haven’t been convicted yet, and another poster spoke of the figures of those who are on remand then released. No-one said it’s a travesty to detain before conviction.

From prison?

Troll the Internet.

It is true that there is a legal maximum time for remand without trial. But it is a simple process to extend it (again and again ...). I know someone who was recently on remand for over 18 months before trial, due to the woeful delays in the court system. And then found not guilty!!

The remaining less than 20% are found "not guilty" which is not the same as being found "innocent".

In English law you are either guilty or innocent.

Let's just hope you are never one of the 20% who are locked up yet are found 'not guilty'