To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

Yes I agree with this post ^ if anything it’s now a green light to encourage schools legally to be free of any religious dogma.

All of these issues regarding religion are pro social. What they say is, to be a good Christian Muslim Jew or Hindu I need this. I don't think there has ever been legal case that said a public institution like a school had a positive duty to do that. It was always within the school's discretion.

This case is pretty interesting on what it means more widely. Basically religious accommodations are at the discretion of the school. They don't have to happen. So for the relatively extreme element that backed and pushed this case forward, they will have got a perverse result for them, because it is worse than before.

Matters re diversity and social inclusion are not as important as delivering education. That seems to me to be something that is not going to change. An attempt to say "but I am excluded" has been firmly placed where it belongs; on the individual conscience of the person who is religious. I don't think that is going to change unless the government legislate otherwise.

What the Michaela Head says about this:

"A great part of the School’s success depends on minimising the distinctions and
divisions between the children and promoting social and cultural integration
between them. Children are keenly aware of differences between them. Without
strict boundaries, they will leverage those differences to jockey for social standing by, for instance, looking down at and belittling other children who don’t conform to what are considered to be the ‘correct’ norms or at other children whose families can’t afford the same luxuries as their family can. These problems can be particularly acute in a school that is as diverse, multi-racial and multi-faith as this one. Without corrective action, children inevitably end up separating themselves into social groups along the same dividing lines that separate groups in wider society. For instance, children with a shared religion will form a particular social group…There is of course othing wrong with children wishing to spend time with others who share the same background, but my experience of working in other schools, and that of my colleagues, is that – if left unchecked - this can develop into social stratifications which are damaging to standards of behaviour and to a ollective ethos.

The School’s approach to tackling such worrying divisions is to aggressively
promote integration between different faiths, cultures and ethnic backgrounds
through the notion of the Team. This ethos infuses all of the School’s practices and policies at all of the different levels of the school”

This is one of the reasons for the ban on children socialising in groups of more than 4. It's also intended to help prevent children from being excluded and isolated on their own.

Many of my Muslim friends love to party I find your comment quite racist and distasteful.

But what about all the other requirements and time for other religions prayers of every other religion?

If you are going to allow this to take place for one religion, it would have to be offered to ALL religions therefore taking up huge swathes of the school day - or the school would be sued for discrimination, quite rightly.

We can not introduce prayer time throughout the school day in any school - it is detrimental to the children. It is detrimental to their ability to think critically and independently and it fosters division.

I can not express to you how important this is if you wish to live in a cohesive, safe and peaceful society.

This is an interesting point about diverse friendship groups. People love to say that people of faith (in this case Muslims) isolate themselves and don’t make diverse friends. But at the same time people on this thread are saying send your kids to a faith school. Well a lot don’t want to do that. They want their kids to be in a diverse school and also for their faith and beliefs to be respected. Additionally how many people have no friends that are Muslim or non white. How many people accept friends that don’t drink or have different values to them regarding relationships etc. (yes I know many do but from the views put out on this thread it shows that clearly the majority don’t). Muslim kids often don’t want to party or drink and often those that do won’t be wanting to hang around with them. It’s not a one way street.

I think the only way to evaluate this one properly is to actually be in the school at the time.
I cannot see anything wromg with ptaying at break. Ok, on top of their blazers maybe does not show the utmost respect for the school, but they do, in genetal, treat those blazers roughly around here too, at least in summer.
For me it would be whether this action draws a difference between pupils, which is what Michaela school said.
Like there are two scenarios.

1. Children pray, others see, they ask, they talk about, they learn about each others culture and continue to intetact happily with all other pupils.
2. Children pray, they become separated from the others, they become friends mostly with their same faith pupils, they do not interact much with the other pupils.

Time and money.

Our education system is underfunded to begin with, and money is being wasted on this rubbish!

This has nothing to do with genuine faith and devotion to God. It is a power play, and just as bullying and dangerous in its way as throwing bottles and absuing people.

The difficulty with faith schools (any faith schools) is that they can become grounds for radicalisation and extremism. This can lead to violence.

It's a proven fact that when children mix with others of different colours and creeds, they become more understanding of other people in general. In Ireland during the Troubles, both sides were very careful not to let Catholic and Protestant children mix, because they didn't want them to see each other as human and to become friends (which on occasion happened). It was necessary to separate them to maintain the conflict and to be able to paint their "enemies" as "other".

It is a way also of strengthening one's own group and it's practiced worldwide by people of all faiths/ tribes/ languages etc. It's divisive. When we have a large multicultural population as in the UK, we can't risk this happening. The risks of very serious civil disorder are huge.

My observant Jewish friends went/ send their children to "ordinary" school during the weekdays, and to Hebrew School, Synagogue schools one evening and at the weekend (during the service, IIRC - like Sunday school) to share the things which were of particular importance to their faith.

There is no reason why Muslim children shouldn't be similarly taught.

Nope. As said multiple times on here, its not appropriate in a school setting when it impacts on others. We have similar at my large company. Muslim employees taking breaks for prayers during the day - a lot of whom take far more than 2-3 minutes, and I’m pretty sure a lot of children would string these prayers out too. Want religion to play a big part in childrens’ school day? Send them to a school which practices it, and don’t impose on others which don’t….

The teacher who was racially abused was Black. The child was quite happy to pray outside school times until an Imam suggested she pray in the playground. This, plus the other court case and the bullying and intimidations seems to me like radicalisation by the cleric and the parent. She is doing her GCSE's so was quite happy at the school for 5 years until this guy turned up. The issue isn't so much the praying but that the ban came as a result of bullying and intimidation. Its not little White Christian children who are their educational prospects damaged by this girl it is Muslim children, in a poor borough who have got into a very demanding school with excellent results who are going to have their chances of being educated out of poverty damaged by her and her friends, and now, her sibling.

Read about what happened. There was disruption. Children were laying down blazers in the playground during breaks to pray, and were intimidating others. That is disruption, and not something we want to encourage in this country.

Yeah tell a Muslim it’s bullshit how they pray. What a sanctimonious person you are telling me that I’m wrong in how I pray in MY religion??? Like get a grip. If you want me to break it down I can happily. It takes less than a minute to do the ablutions and can be done sometimes from the morning. Either way it would be done in a bathroom seperate to praying. Each prayer takes 2-3 mins on average. You can be slower or faster depending on the verses recited. During a normal school day depending on the time of year you would only do 1-2 of the five daily prayers.

This is the problem with mumsnet and society as a whole. You just want to control other people and children who are slightly different to you and only accept your way of living life and try and tell others that they are wrong even if it’s something you literally don’t understand.

I think you couldn't have individual children praying at individual times either. It is the collective nature of the praying that makes it more a profound change of ethos. It is children praying and wishing to be seen praying to fit in with a community. If collective worship is allowed this definitely changes the ethos of the school.

That is your choice as it is the choice of every parent whatever their reasoning. No-one in this instance was forced to go to this school, or to stay there.

What I do find concerning is the parents support of the children bullying other pupils and teachers. This is disgusting imo and the head has decisively taken action to stop this. I for one think that is the right thing to do. If any child is being bullied no parent, regardless of religion, should support that.

The assumption here is that this is a Christian vs Muslim issue when in fact it appears to be Muslim children bullying other Muslim children and intimidating (quite possibly) muslim teachers.

The Muslim faith is purported to be a faith of peace and therefore, if they are as devout as they want us to believe, then bullying others to fit in with their own ideology, should not be supported.

What about Jewish, Hindu children and other religions? There are most definitely more than two religions in the works. Are the rest ignored in your school? That seems to me to be even worse! Discrimination at best.

Well you seem to be really targeting my replies for some reason. We can NOT facilitate space and time for every religion in the world in our schools! Are you saying Islam is somehow special and more deserving than others? I can assure you it’s most definitely not. It’s the same as any other religion that is practiced in the world.

We don’t have the time, the space or the resources to even consider allowing ‘prayer time’ for every religion in the world - which would be the only FAIR thing to do - religion has to stay outside the class room so children can concentrate on their EDUCATION which is why they are there.

Most children finish school at 3.30pm leaving ample time to practice any religion. It can not, should not, and will not dominate in a school setting.

The Judge and legal advisors will have considered the OVERALL impact to children’s education - which if we include everyone’s prayer time they will be doing very little else - and decided this is the best outcome for the children and their future.

There is ample time outside of school hours to follow religious pursuits.

I got really confused about who Michael was!

I think it's a fair ruling for a secular school.

My daughter is at a secondary with a Christian ethos, neither of us have a religion. They also have a prayer room for Muslim students though. From what I understand it's somewhere to lark about in, if it's raining!

That said, my daughter knows far more about Islam than she does Christianity. It's always interesting to learn another view point and beliefs.

It's not for me though. Knowledge yes, shackled no.

Bullshit.

The length or prayer varies and is usually between 10-15 minutes. Not including ablutions.

If you can do it in under 5, I think you are doing it wrong differently than most.

Talking of disruption, I had the misfortune to be sent to a school that made a big thing of Christianity though it wasn't a church school as such. I just worked out that we lost the equivalent of 11 school days a year in terms of time spent on religious worship. Odd how no-one complained about disruption when it was the C of E doing it.

No they wouldn't. Plenty of schools allow and even faciitate prayer without any else being disrupted at all.

Really? Even if there are no available places in appropriate schools in the vicinity? Even if you are coming up to important public exams? Be realistic.

If it was, that would have destroyed much of the school's case as to its reasoning for changing the rules.

Hardly a convincing argument. What are you saying? That we shouldn't be able to bring any legal challenges through the courts? That we shouldn't be able to bring judicial review challenges? That we shouldn't have legal aid? Or what?

Funny that. Literally just got my child’s primary school place. 90% of the schools in my town are COE with a couple being Catholic. I think there were 2 out of maybe 12 that were not. No one complains about bible stories and engaging in Christian festivals (neither am I as my child is about to go to a COE school) but a few minutes to practice a personal belief??

Perhaps you all need to evaluate why you find this so objectionable. If a school was in an area in which a large proportion of students were Jewish and many wanted to observe a very important part of their religion, eg the sabbath, why not allow it? Would we be having this conversation?