To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

Yes this is a possibility. I suspected it was more the parents/Imams, despite what the parents said. Its possible to parents thought sending her to a 'strict' school would resolve her behavioural problem or they are in denial about her additional needs. But constant disruption like this doesn't help other children in the class or the school though. They want a decent education and to go to school in a safe environment and they have one child disrupting their education to this extent.

This is a criminal offence. Repeatedly. She should have been expelled the first time.

@DramaLlamaBangBang

is it possible the files had mental health issues and in combination with a religious family found herself as pawn by some in the community to bring this legal action?

I was disappointed that even in apparently the 'strictest school in Britain' abusing a teacher and taking a knife into school is not enough for a permanent expulsion. She was suspended 5 times, which is ridiculous.

@Emotionalsupportviper

maybe bullying and intimidation isn't haram?

One census suggested the Jedi religion was a popular religion. I think atheists were simply mocking the census but I shows that a child could identify with any made up religion and dictate for school deteriorated rights (maybe meeting with Yoda at lunch?).

Unfortunately I think this sensible ruling is going to be deposited and the appeal will be heavily promoted in the press. I really hope that in future schools aren't made to back down on sensible policies to accommodate one religion. For logistical purposes and classroom management the prayers would have to be collective with presumably boys and girls split in a way turbulent arise in any other lesson apart from PE. This is allowing faith schooling to creep into secular schools by the backdoor and you could possibly see other areas of Islamic ideology creeping into the school.

Hell's teeth!

I hadn't heard about the knife incident. That's horrific.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/16/michaela-school-prayer-ban-muslim-teacher-religion

This piece here is incredibly disingenuous and glosses over the intimidation and bullying mentioned in this thread. There is no mention of entrenched misogyny in certain certain elements of Islam. I don't quite see how a left leaning liberal paper which seems to support declining Christinaity can support another religion which if anything can be more patriarchal and dogmatic.

There seems to be a trend in the left wing press to call for less Christian worship of at least not to bemoan its fall. However there Is a double standard in that Islam is not treated in the same way possibly to protect minority sensitivities. The press hail fall in Christian worship as liberating but then have pieces saying Mulsims should be able to worship in schools as it is an integral part of their identity. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Again I think there is a fear amongst migrants that their faith will lapse due to the overall secular (Christian heritage) of our country and its liner so values. Removing religious worshipful schools shows them that the sky doesn't fall in if they don't practise certain religious observances and they may look at their faith more crtically. When a place of education doesn't support a religion then some of the most informative experiences of a young persons life will occur without the constraints of a religious education.

I know of Muslims who like Christians do give up on a lot of the religious observances of Islam and confess to not believing in a super natural being and to some extent this as maybe a natural progression but one which the more religious are deeply afraid of. Daughters not wearing Hijabs, wearing western clothing, dating white non Muslims and drinking is a nightmare that possibly keeps a number of Muslim fathers awake at night.

Additionally I think we need to cast a light on how some of the more strict Islamic practises can damage a child's education. Learning the Qran by heart takes a huge amount of mental bandwidth as well as knowledge of Arabic so this deflects from other educational opportunities (maths/science etc.). A strong Islamic upbringing teaches boys not to respect women leaders including teachers and their overall view of the world will become one a patriarchal religion first and education secone.

I think this is why we should not have a huge number of Muslim faith schools and promote secular liberal values to everyone. It is fine to have a religion in my view but not find to allow the religious dogma to set out citizens in paths that are in conflict with other values.

The mother also said she chose the school becsuse it was strict. I presume she didnt realise the strictness also apply to her daughter taking a knife into school and threatening to stab another pupil, intimidation and bullying or racially abusing teachers. Maybe she thought ' strict' meant letting her daughter do what she liked?

I agree - they picked the school . It is secular and they should not and cannot change it through the back door once in there. The school has a system where you get just about no free time in a very radical way most teenagers and parents would not like but it almost certainly stops people making trouble as they don't have much free time (a bit like a boarding school with homework club, after school activities and no time to miss your parents kind of thing).

On the mormon example some religions do try to convert people and I suppose if you think only those are in your one will live when the end of the world comes and if that is coming very soon then it is almost a kindness to tell people the message.
The issue of religion in non religious state schools is always interesting. I thought there was a law that every state school in the country had to have some kind of collective worship. I have not read the judgment yet but may be it deals with that in there. Here is a reference to the law https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/dec/03/schools-call-for-end-to-archaic-daily-worship-following-uk-census-results In the 1970s as a teenager I played the piano every Monday to Friday at assembly for some years for the Christian hymns we had 5 days a week. I love hymns to this day and still play and sing them at my piano - gorgeous words and harmonies and of course so much of "our" history in there too and I always thought it was rather nice that state schools have to have this collective worship every day. The law does not say it has to be christian so we have a hindu state school in my area for example and jewish and a muslim one I think - I am not too far from the school in the court case - and I presume they might well have collective worship of their own faiths. Some schools put on different assemblies - one of my children (Christian) used to go to the Jewish assembly sometimes at school not the Christian / secular one as Jewish one was shorter!

But... you can't have it both ways can you? Re Muslim parents wanting them to attend a secular school where religion plays no part and then stomping their feet when their offspring 'does' want to exercise their right to a more extreme form of religion.

I wonder how many Muslim parents who aren't radicals, would prefer for their DD's (or DS's) to be less radical if they do become radical? I suppose in a sense, if they're not radical, it must almost be as bad as their child getting involved with drugs/alcohol and the quandary must be, should they leave their child to find their own way, even if they do become radical, or should they crack down on this, especially in the light of Shamima Begum et al. I know several Muslims through work and a couple personally, and the ones who are more Westernised (tends to be the older ones), they really just prefer to keep religion separate from work/school and to live a fairly quiet life! Even the younger male ones I worked with who went to mosque on Friday lunchtimes, they generally kept work/life separate and would never, ever bring religion into the office.

I did once know a Mormon contractor who became 'friends' with me via email and when I had to go on site to a Birmingham office where we had a job on (worked for architects) we sometimes met up, as he knew the site and area very well. This man met me at a delicate and emotional time in my life where I'd been very depressed at one point and he set about trying to convert me to be Mormon, giving me a Bible, sending me links to Mormon websites and telling me all about Mormon discos/events, benefits of not drinking caffeine etc and even at one stage (his wife was ill with breast cancer), making allusions to me possibly being married to him (she was expected to die at one point) - he wasn't my type at all. Now I realise he was trying to have an EA with me, but at the time I innocently thought of him as more of a friend as he did give some good advice, and we just spoke via email/phone. My best friend had also recently moved back to Coventry from London, so I'd often go to Coventry via Birmingham to see her. The last time we met up, it was for a late lunch, on site, and I got a slight off vibe then, he reminded me slightly of the male character (can't think of the name) in William Trevor's, 'Felicia's Journey' in description of his looks (he tries to murder Felicia). If it happened now, I'd run fast in the opposite direction, and he was being inappropriate by trying to convert me into being a Mormon but I understand this is what they sometimes do.

I agree exactly with the rest of what you say though.

Yes, there are certainly middle aged muslim UK women delighted not to cover their heads who then find the teenage rebellion of their daughters was not s ex drugs and rock and roll but fundamentalist Islam in a sense. The school here is a very special one which is completely secular but which has 50% muslim pupils. The UK then seemed to get very fundamentalist often Saudi type - I think I read about Deobandi, never mind the sunni, shia divide and the fact that some in the UK have escaped dreadful islamic regimes abroad like Iran and now campaign against them in the UK (one journalist was attacked in London https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/17/world/europe/uk-london-iranian-journalists-repression.html ) whereas some support the regime from which they came abroad - same with Chinese dissidents and those supporting the regime.

So I can see why plenty of muslim parents might want their children in a secular school where religion plays no part.

Anyway thankfully the court came up with a good judgment supporting the school. I agree with the doctor above that you can pray without anyone knowing (as Christians of course can and do ) and there is no need to do it in groups where people can even see you are doing it.

Let us hope we can all continue to live at peace with each other in the UK with all our different views largely in harmony with each other (one reason the UK has never been so popular and we have never in our history had as many people coming here because we are one of the best nations there is for tolerance and democracy).

Years ago, just as it was becoming trendy for Muslims to wear hijabs etc I was in my local Sainsburys, doing shopping. There was a Muslim girl, not in a hijab but young and on the checkout, I'd seen her a few times and she always came off ok, fairly friendly.

She was serving a customer and suddenly whilst she was doing this there was a stand-up row, mostly started by the checkout girl from what I heard, which included a few phrases like 'how dare you disrespect me', and ended with a line about 'her being Muslim'. It seemed like the checkout woman had pounced upon a look or a comment the woman customer had said (I didn't hear this) and had just let rip. This young checkout woman was dressed in a Western fashion, with lots of makeup, manicured nails, big hair. The row got so heated and had lots of swearing, mostly from the checkout woman, that her supervisor had to come over and forcibly remove her as the white younger woman customer (guessing 30s?) was starting to get upset, not teary, but shocked at what had happened. The younger woman was denying she'd said anything offensive, said 'I was just trying to do my shopping'. I was just behind her in the queue.

I don't know what started this argument, but from how I viewed it, the checkout woman was spoiling for a fight and took a chance comment or something from a female customer to have a go. This was way before the hijab wearing became mainstream, at least in our area, approx. 18-20 years ago (gosh that sounds a long time ago!).

I think back then, that this was a sign of more radical behaviour amongst Muslims, it was post 9/11, 7/7 and our area was/is fairly diverse but is or was back then, white and lower to normal middle class (working class really as they all 'work').

I never saw the checkout woman again, and I'm assuming she was fired. I don't think shop work is easy though, customers can be rude, it was also at the time when customer service in general was going on the decline, e.g. in even a department store you'd get hardly any response from someone who'd served you. Me, personally, if I don't get a polite response when I've bought something, I won't return to that store, it's not about the master/servant equation but I expect a certain amount of civility when I conduct a transaction, rather than a grunt. The young man in the Greggs in Tescos (SW London) who made my tea and served me a vegan sausage roll the other day was lovely, polite, engaging, funny, probably had SEN/ND from my engagement, but was so nice, that I'd return there because he made an effort and was funny. In fact most of the Greggs workers are charming (apart from the ones in St James's Park area, a bit grumpy!) and that's why I return.

The school is secular. Parents sign to say they agree with the policy of a prayer ban ( I think). Moslem kids started overtly praying and intimidating those not following Ramadan. There's no prayer room cos the school is secular. Parent takes school to court.
How mother who was desperate to get daughter into Michaela School took head to court (telegraph.co.uk)

Given prayer is flexible there was no need for any of this. Children should be encouraged to pursue their religious activities outside of the classroom, to encourage inclusivity and proper integration.

Believe it or not Islam is flexible

I do believe it @Custardcream84 - I have worked with many Muslim people, and like the rest of humanity some are nice, some are nasty, all are human.

I know from them that there is flexibility built into the prayer requirements. That is why I feel that what happened at Michaela was nothing to do with true faith.

@Custardcream84

I am certain that you do not make a point of bullying or shaming your colleagues into joining you in your prayers. Also confident that you don't berate your female colleagues for not dressing modestly or covering their hair. That would not be acceptable in the work place and it isn't acceptable in school.

I’m a surgeon. I manage to pray fine. Believe it or not Islam is flexible but where possible it’s nice to be able to pray on time or within the proscribed hours. Even as a surgeon we don’t operate non stop for 8-10 hours. We have bathroom breaks and lunch breaks even during a 12-14 hour ops which my specialty does. If I have twenty mins to go and have lunch I can use 5 of those to pray. If I don’t or have emergencies to deal with or patients that need immediate review (happens often) then I pray later. But if I have an hour lunch BREAK (break being the operative word although it’s rarely an hour or rarely not requiring me to see patients review scan reports or speak to colleagues) then I usually have time to pray. I wouldn’t worry about Muslim surgeons and pilots. There are plenty of us and our workplaces manage to provide enough space and time for us to pray when we can. It’s a shame that schools are not providing this.

it just is upsetting the rhetoric that people are trying to force religion down people’s throats. Most genuinely are concerned with themselves. If there was a room available people can just take themselves there and do their prayers. I certainly don’t announce to the world what I’m doing or where I’m going when I go and pray I just do it.

It is a bit like the Christian message that if you give you do so anonymously so that no one sees you did so the sin of showing off/ pride does not become part of it. However plenty of Christian cultures do have occasion public displays - Spain Mardi Gras etc parades; and there is the interesting religious issue that fundamentalist Christian, Jewish and Muslim women might cover their hair to as NOT to draw attention to themselves. In a sense if that were ever a rule it was a rule to mean you are not spotted as showing off. So perhaps NOT using head covering when most of the 67m in the UK don't do it is the proper religious conduct equivalent in UK 2024 rather than the other way around.

I would agree.

In my experience the more "holy" they are the less truly generous of spirit.

The truly good people I have known (of all faiths) have lived their goodness - not publicly aired it.

Sadly the more 'devout' and in your face the person (irrespective of the religion) the more wary I am.

Indeed it is.

It's making a statement that they consider themselves "better" than others - including less devout Muslims. "Look at me! I'm so holy."

I was always taught that God likes us to pray modestly.
(Jesus said, “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." (Matt 6:5))

I hope none of those young men become surgeons or airline pilots. Stopping part way through an operation or a complicated aerial manoeuvre might not be a good idea.

I’m interested as to why any Muslim child needs to do this, it is virtual signalling as they can simply catch up with prayer at home after school. There is just no need for this - and it makes me sad that it’s now being weaponised to create divisions and disunity.

The girl was happy to pray in a group at lunch time ie once - her suggested compromise I suppose as could not break during lessons. This was completely against the ethos of the school as she knew full well when she joined it and she lost. Plenty of different kinds of schools do allow muslim collective prayers.

It is a bit silly that their God cannot hear prayers said quietly in your head rather than needing all this fuss and huge visibility of the whole thing https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10274505/School-apologises-video-showing-Muslim-students-praying-outside-cold-weather-sparks-outrage.html