To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

@pensione

But it's not a need. If it is a need do we need to accommodate the needs of every child and how does that work?

There is an educational need to not compromise the valuable school day and schools have the ability to do this.

@DramaLlamaBangBang

Exactly and that is why this ruling is to be applauded but there has to be caution about the ramifications of appeal (which optimistically I hope unsuccessful(

Well people do object, that’s the whole premise of the OP’s post - that the younger Muslim child shouldn’t be allowed an education as revenge.

You lot would have been the same people shouting against the need for halal food to be served in schools.

Minorities have to fight for the changes they need.

@DramaLlamaBangBang

It may be that the majority of Muslims at the school came from less conservative families and were happy with the ethos hence selecting the school.

Religions can thrive from oppression and brining the less religious into line and I think the girl and her family had this view. The parents did not like their daughter being in an environment where Muslims were allowed to disregard prayer.

Once prayer rules are sidelined then the whole edifice of a religion creaks a bit. If prayers aren't necessary at certain times of the day then you question hijab, question abstinence, question restrictions on gender roles etc.

School rules are set within the law. If the school had broken the law, the courts would not have been able to find for the school. They have not broken the law. They have treated all religions equally.

Totally tangential but sounds like a horrific school for pupils... Sounds more like a very controlling prison re their rules about association etc.

@DramaLlamaBangBang

We can't forget about the rule of law in this country. Parliament and it's laws are sovereign.

The 50% of Muslim children in the school seemed happy. They were the ones being bullied by this woman's child. She is the one who didn't like the school rules. If my child is following the school rules and I've agreed to the ethos of the school, why should a child who is abiding by the rules be made to leave to accommodate a child from a disruptive family who it is possible the local imams are using to cause disruption because Muslims want to go to the school and are hspoy to have a secular efucation ? Let's just accommodate and pander to bullies shall we?

@pensione
I think it's important schools set rules and it's not up to parents to dictate to schools. This undermines the whole school system.

Secular schooling is important and the majority of the UK support it. I think it actually acts as a release from overbearing religious influence.

I don't think people object to an individual but to the fact they have tried at great expense to change rules to incorporate archaic religious practice contrary to the general positive secularisation of our education.

If you don’t want this woman’s child at your school, go to another school.

By law, there has to be a section of Christian worship in schools. Many schools don't comply, but that's neither here nor there. The school rules are the school rules. Dont like it, go to another school.

I also think when we think about religious tolerance we should not tolerate intolerance.

Islam in many forms is hugely limiting on girls in a western society. There are clothing limitations to PE, or mixed sex sporting events, Muslim girls are discouraged from acting, presenting or dancing. Muslim girls will not listen to what we would feel fairly standard pop music. Muslim girls are taught they have to do everything possible to prevent lustful thoughts from men as it's their responsibility.

The rules for girls are extremely archaic and the idea of a Muslim feminist is an oxymoron. If a Christian cult were to introduce such restrictions we would call it out for coercive and controlling behaviour. However with Islam it's all good and some would expect our schools to support such views.

More reasons for concern about faith and faith schools

@Ponoka7

people considering the national anthem as hymn as it mentions God and therefore asking for it not to be sung (discriminatory innit?) Is something that would really get a lot of peoples backs up pretty quickly.

@pensione

I think we have to acknowledge that the Christian faith in this country has left an indelible mark on our shared culture and identity. We have a Christian monarchy, many churches, Christian names, and Christian schools (though in decline in terms of religiosity).

there is always going to be the fact that Chrsitianity holds an important part of our cultural heritage and many people support this default. I think therefore care has to be taken when saying all religions are equal.

As I have said before Christia n observance is falling but we do not want to replace Christinaity with religions that incorporate some of the more archaic patriarchal views of Abrahamic faiths.

Why is it a punishment, if you don't like a school, to send your other child somewhere else? I think sending the second child there is rank hypocrisy

You have to wonder don't you?

Also about what the real motivation is for wanting a second child to go there, now the law's been clarified and resulted in an outcome which clearly won't suit

How then is the school totally secular if religious hyms are sung?

So punish a young Muslim child? Noooo, that’s not racist at all 🙄

Things do change.

When I was at school there were no vegetarian/halal/kosher options, except chips. Now there are. That’s because of parents making their kids’ needs clear.

I didn’t even go to a faith school but we sang Christian worship like Kumbayaah often in morning assembles.

There is a hypocrisy in this debate.

@KTheGrey

I think that makes sense. We need to all feel like citizens of the UK. Whether we like it or not we are bound by the laws, history and culture of this country

One thought maybe is to borrow from the US and have a collective rendition of the national anthem? This would emphasise our shared responsibilities as UK citizens and emphasise the common ties of state that bind us!

@DramaLlamaBangBang

Allowing faith schools seems to be lending legitimacy to the educational failings you describe?

I agree there must be more attention to home schooling regulation and we don't want situations where hone schooling with all it's educational challenges becomes a default option if there isnt a faith school.

I think there is general resistance to more faith schools and we have to remember a lot of faith schooling in this country originated centuries ago and there is still a rich legacy

C of E and Catholic schools have a good reputation generally in our locality but in reality the religious ethos has subsided. There are a lot of questions about Islamic ideology in schools here where there is a significant Muslim intake. I don't think we should be enabling some of the worse aspects of this ideology especially regarding the status of women for example.

Yes this is the issue with banning faith schools. Unless home schooling is far more strictly regulated we will have enclaves of extreme religious teachings, girls not educated to the same level as boys huge illiteracy in some communities etc.

I think we need to cast a light on how some of the more strict Islamic practises can damage a child's education. Learning the Qran by heart takes a huge amount of mental bandwidth as well as knowledge of Arabic so this deflects from other educational opportunities (maths/science etc.). A strong Islamic upbringing teaches boys not to respect women leaders including teachers and their overall view of the world will become one a patriarchal religion first and education secone.

I think this is why we should not have a huge number of Muslim faith schools and promote secular liberal values to everyone. It is fine to have a religion in my view but not find to allow the religious dogma to set out citizens in paths that are in conflict with other values.

I feel the same about all religious schooling. Some of the really extreme Jewish ones concentrate on the faith, with education an afterthought. There is a lot of dodgy stuff going on with some schools not registered and operating under the radar. Same with some of the extreme groups of other faiths. It’s hugely concerning. Many of the ‘official’ faith schools take up too much time focusing on faith imo and not enough on general education . The Jewish and Muslim schools in my city don’t do at all well in Ofsteds

I agree.

TBH taking any weapon into any school should be immediate expulsion.

And racially abusing staff of fellow pupils should have been "one strike and you're out".- you get ONE warning, but if you don't change your attitude, then that's it.

I think it must be quite difficult to expel a child nowadays.