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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

586 replies

KTheGrey · 16/04/2024 15:27

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

OP posts:
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Youzaname · 16/04/2024 16:49

I do find it mind blowing that the school controls their break to this extent, but it obviously gets them the results they're aiming for.

Given the horrendous behaviour going on in many schools I’d be surprised if more didn’t start going down this road.

eggplant16 · 16/04/2024 16:49

How has tax payers money been used? You can't get Legal Aid in practically all situations, even the most serious.

WrenNatsworthy · 16/04/2024 16:48

KrisAkabusi · 16/04/2024 15:47

What consequences should she/they face? The school made a change to their policy that they did not agree with. A court ruled that the school had the right to impose that aspect. Life now goes on as normal. They didn't do anything wrong by bringing the case, everyone has a right to test rules in the courts. It's how the whole system works. Are you now proposing they should be punished just because you don't like it?

This.

Dacadactyl · 16/04/2024 16:47

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/04/2024 16:40

For those asking about the "other case being brought", the Headteacher's statement is below - the paywall can be ignored if you just scroll down to see the script in a smaller space

Frankly I'm surprised that she admitted the second child at all after this, but doubtless there'd have been yet another case brought if she'd refused

And I only wish we could get rid of all religious observance in schools and leave it as a private choice where it belongs

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-michaela-court-ruling-is-a-victory-for-all-schools/

I'm religious, but this headteacher sounds phenomenal. If my faith didn't have its own schools, I'd be sending them to hers in a heartbeat.

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 16:47

KrisAkabusi · 16/04/2024 16:47

From that Spectator article:

Can it be right for a family to receive £150,000 of taxpayer-funded legal aid to bring a case like this? The judge is clear that the child’s statements were not written by her alone. Indeed this mum intends to send her second child to Michaela, starting in September. At the same time, this mum has sent a letter to our lawyers suggesting that she may take us to court yet again over another issue at the school she doesn’t like, presumably once again at the taxpayer’s expense.

Yes, it is absolutely right that taxpayer money should be used to challenge things. Otherwise only rich people can go to court.

100%

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 16:47

Soigneur · 16/04/2024 16:45

@Puzzledandpissedoff non-selective school admissions aren't at the whim of the headmistress. They are administered by the local council (Brent in this case). Heads neither know, nor have any control, over who has been offered a place.

Also academies manage their own admissions, in many Boroughs there are very few schools where admissions are still managed by the LA I.e. there aren't many maintained schools left, especially at secondary.

KrisAkabusi · 16/04/2024 16:47

From that Spectator article:

Can it be right for a family to receive £150,000 of taxpayer-funded legal aid to bring a case like this? The judge is clear that the child’s statements were not written by her alone. Indeed this mum intends to send her second child to Michaela, starting in September. At the same time, this mum has sent a letter to our lawyers suggesting that she may take us to court yet again over another issue at the school she doesn’t like, presumably once again at the taxpayer’s expense.

Yes, it is absolutely right that taxpayer money should be used to challenge things. Otherwise only rich people can go to court.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/04/2024 16:46

KTheGrey · 16/04/2024 16:07

That's really interesting to me. I think we should embrace secularity, because we have to live together. And I would be astonished if all employers allow prayer breaks. Is this mandatory? I thought you could make up prayers after work if necessary?

Useful link below which answers your question, OP - the relevant bit is "An employer is under no obligation to automatically give staff time off for religious holidays or festivals, time to pray or a place to pray. However, it should consider requests carefully and sympathetically, be reasonable and flexible where possible, and discuss the request and explore any concerns with the employee. Refusing a request without a good business reason could amount to discrimination. An employee, in making a request, should be reasonable, flexible and sympathetic too in taking into account the demands of their job and the needs of the organisation employing them"

https://www.acas.org.uk/sites/default/files/inline-files/religion-belief-discrimination-guide.pdf

https://www.acas.org.uk/sites/default/files/inline-files/religion-belief-discrimination-guide.pdf

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 16:46

Soigneur · 16/04/2024 16:45

@Puzzledandpissedoff non-selective school admissions aren't at the whim of the headmistress. They are administered by the local council (Brent in this case). Heads neither know, nor have any control, over who has been offered a place.

This is a free school, I think that makes a difference?

Soigneur · 16/04/2024 16:45

@Puzzledandpissedoff non-selective school admissions aren't at the whim of the headmistress. They are administered by the local council (Brent in this case). Heads neither know, nor have any control, over who has been offered a place.

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 16:44

Those who think this was correct application of the law (which I'm sure it is), would the same apply if it were a maintained school or an academy? I.e. parents had less choice about sending their child there?

I do find it mind blowing that the school controls their break to this extent, but it obviously gets them the results they're aiming for.

Toddlerteaplease · 16/04/2024 16:44

Since they are unhappy with the school. I'm amazed they want to send the younger child there. As the head teacher said, by applying to the school, they signed up for the schools ethos. I remember my parents being told similar when they applied for my Catholic school.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 16/04/2024 16:42

I'm an atheist and am against faith schools. However, I do not see any reason why a student should not be allowed to pray during break or lunch time on school grounds, whether it is a secular school or not. As long as a student is in an area where they are allowed to be, during non-lesson time, why shouldn't they be allowed to engage in any activity they like which does no harm to others?

I teach in a secular, very culturally diverse girls' grammar school, which is very supportive of students' cultures, including their religion. We have a prayer and reflection room, which anyone can use, but which is mostly used by our Muslim girls during Ramadan.

If there was already a policy in place when this child joined the school, specifically stating that prayer was not allowed on school grounds, then the family are being unreasonable. If not, then they are justified. I am not a fan of the Michaela School's methods, or Birbalsingh's attitude.

Youzaname · 16/04/2024 16:41

No I think they were fine to challenge this as they were doing what they believe is right from the point of view of their religion.

But I also believe the court made the right decision.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/04/2024 16:40

For those asking about the "other case being brought", the Headteacher's statement is below - the paywall can be ignored if you just scroll down to see the script in a smaller space

Frankly I'm surprised that she admitted the second child at all after this, but doubtless there'd have been yet another case brought if she'd refused

And I only wish we could get rid of all religious observance in schools and leave it as a private choice where it belongs

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-michaela-court-ruling-is-a-victory-for-all-schools/

The Michaela court ruling is a victory for all schools

The High Court has ruled today in favour of Michaela Community School, after it was sued by a Muslim pupil who objected to the school’s prayer ban. Below is a statement from the school’s headmistress, Katharine Birbalsingh: A school should be free to d...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-michaela-court-ruling-is-a-victory-for-all-schools

Soigneur · 16/04/2024 16:39

OneTC · 16/04/2024 16:08

I am not religious and would prefer for there to be a separation between church and state but I wouldn't extend that to personal prayer in lunch time.

I'm more blown away by them not being allowed to congregate in groups larger than 4. That must make a kick around pretty shit

There are no sports facilities or playing fields, and barely a playground. Birbalsingh seems to think that sport is a bourgeois indulgence and the school appears to do only the bare minimum required PE. A lunchtime kick about, or pickup game of rounders is definitely not on the cards.

OneTC · 16/04/2024 16:30

crumblingschools · 16/04/2024 16:14

A lot of behaviour issues in other schools would be improved if not allowed to congregate in groups of more than 4

A lot of behaviour issues everywhere would be improved if no one ever was allowed to congregate in groups of more than 4 however it would just be completely fucking shit.

supercalie · 16/04/2024 16:24

They introduced the new policy in an "emergency" situation after intimidating behaviour.

Michaela School: Reversing prayer ban would expose school to risk, High Court hears www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68013174

"Mr Coppel said that during March 2023 "Muslim children were observed to be applying peer pressure to other Muslim children to act in certain ways".

One student who had never previously worn a headscarf was "pressured into wearing one", while a Muslim pupil dropped out of the school's choir as she was told it was "haram", or forbidden, the court heard."

It sounds like the rule was introduced to protect students from each other.

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/apr/16/london-school-katharine-birbalsingh-prayer-rituals-ban-not-unlawful-high-court

"Birbalsingh warned against a false narrative about Muslims being an oppressed minority at Michaela. “They are, in fact, the largest group. Those who are most at risk are other minorities and Muslim children who are less observant. If parents do not like what Michaela is, they do not need to send their children to us."

VisitationRights · 16/04/2024 16:24

I am very pleased with the court’s ruling, it is the right one. I believe in a total separation between church and state. There should be no state funded religious schools at all.

I am also fine with the younger child attending the school, she shouldn’t be punished for the actions of the litigious mother (nobody believes this was all driven by the daughter)

Soozikinzii · 16/04/2024 16:23

I also think we should be like France and have no religion at all at school . The whole faith school Academy thing has done terrible damage to our state education system. As a lifelong Labour voter and teacher of 40 years I can see that Tony Blair has alot to answer for . I am glad that the schools principles have been upheld in court.

PuttingDownRoots · 16/04/2024 16:23

Actually I think the school should be proud of their pupil here. She had the strength of conviction to pursue her cause through a mature method, rather than just stamping her foot and going "its not fair".

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 16:14

KTheGrey · 16/04/2024 16:07

That's really interesting to me. I think we should embrace secularity, because we have to live together. And I would be astonished if all employers allow prayer breaks. Is this mandatory? I thought you could make up prayers after work if necessary?

They weren't asking for prayer breaks. They wanted to pray in their break.

crumblingschools · 16/04/2024 16:14

A lot of behaviour issues in other schools would be improved if not allowed to congregate in groups of more than 4

KTheGrey · 16/04/2024 16:11

OneTC · 16/04/2024 16:08

I am not religious and would prefer for there to be a separation between church and state but I wouldn't extend that to personal prayer in lunch time.

I'm more blown away by them not being allowed to congregate in groups larger than 4. That must make a kick around pretty shit

They are not there for a kick around. They are supervised throughout the school day and this is a school of absolutes - absolute concentration on The Goal.

OP posts:
Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 16:11

KTheGrey · 16/04/2024 16:04

I beg your pardon. You are quite right; March 2023. I was under the impression that they had no prayer room on purpose though? Along with doing revision on Sundays which annoys Christians and having eggs touch plates which is not allowed in Hinduism. And teaching Macbeth with witches which upsets thr Jehovah's Witnesses.

But they weren't asking for a prayer room, just to be allowed to pray in the playground during their lunch break.

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