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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

586 replies

KTheGrey · 16/04/2024 15:27

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

OP posts:
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15
Spirallingdownwards · 16/04/2024 18:05

KTheGrey · 16/04/2024 15:56

How do you define reasonable and do you think the taxpayer should pay for these suits?

To get legal aid the case has to be adjudged by the Legal Aid Board to have merit and have a reasonable chance of success so I guess that definition applies for this case. HTH

SevenSeasOfRhye · 16/04/2024 18:05

I think the pupils should be allowed to pray - most workplaces accommodate prayer.

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 18:05

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:01

So the child can pray after lunch and move on with their day. No need for special arrangements. They can and should choose a faith based school if this isn’t good enough.

I dont pray, and I have no issue with anyone who does but it shouldn’t be impacting other people.

But they couldn't, that was the problem. They were praying in the playground in their lunch break. The school found it disruptive because students were putting pressure on others, and also because it was in public view and they were getting threats about not providing correct facilities. So they're not allowed to pray on school premises at all.

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:04

It is a secular school.

If are a devout Muslim or any other religious group then it’s the wrong school for you.

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:03

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:01

So the child can pray after lunch and move on with their day. No need for special arrangements. They can and should choose a faith based school if this isn’t good enough.

I dont pray, and I have no issue with anyone who does but it shouldn’t be impacting other people.

They can ans should use the courts to determine whether the school is acting in accordance with the law. They system worked fine - a case was taken, a ruling was made.

Do you want to live in a dictatorship with no access to courts? Move out of Britain if so.

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/04/2024 18:03

FlexIt · 16/04/2024 17:52

@Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain why are you repeating yourself? Obviously I disagree with you.

My point which I thought was quite clear is that I’m very surprised the school’s right to set its own rules overrides the human right to expression of religion (during non teaching periods).
This appears a very slippery slope and I hope it is challenged so that there can be full clarity.

Hang on a sec - you want for this case to be challenged so ultimately the pupils can pray whenever and wherever they like and sod the consequences. Good luck with that when the pupils leave school and get jobs.

And as a pp said and others have said, this was mostly to do with bullying, which should be stamped out in all cases. How dare the mother bully other pupils and members of staff? Who the hell does she think she is?

Dacadactyl · 16/04/2024 18:02

FlexIt · 16/04/2024 17:56

So posters don’t think teenaged pupils should be permitted to pray during their breaks? How utterly bizarre. You do know many non religious secondary schools have religious clubs? Where pupils will certainly be praying according to their various religions.
And adults are always permitted to
pray in their work breaks, I don’t understand the view that it should be different for young people.

They were bullying and mocking the children who weren't joining in!!!

So the HT came down like a ton of bricks and said (rightly) "this is not acceptable"

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:02

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:01

It was at lunchtime.

No more disruptive than playing football or table tennis.

So they don’t need special arrangements- you can literally pray anywhere!

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 18:02

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:01

It was at lunchtime.

No more disruptive than playing football or table tennis.

Which they're also not able to do at this school.

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:01

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 17:58

Because it will constantly disrupt other children’s education and is unfair on them and the teachers.

It was at lunchtime.

No more disruptive than playing football or table tennis.

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:01

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 17:58

It was at lunchtime, that's the point.

Pandering to what kind of thing - people being a little bit different to you? Are you really so scared that someone might pray in a different way to you?

So the child can pray after lunch and move on with their day. No need for special arrangements. They can and should choose a faith based school if this isn’t good enough.

I dont pray, and I have no issue with anyone who does but it shouldn’t be impacting other people.

Custardcream84 · 16/04/2024 18:01

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 17:56

I find it deeply irritating. There are breaks and lunchtime opportunities where students, if they wish, can pray. There is no need to bring it into the school day, which will affect, disrupt and compromise the education of millions of children.

I don’t support further legal action at all. For goodness sake, you sign your children up to a school or homeschool if your religious beliefs impose strict routines that can not be facilitated in any reasonable way by a standard school.

We need to get a grip - I fear this will be even worse if we end up with a Labour government pandering constantly to exactly this kind of thing.

I don’t think anyone was expecting to pray during lessons?? The school banned people praying at all. Ie in their private break time and free time during lunch. Never once in my 39 years have I ever asked to pray at work or school outside a dedicated break time or used time on top of a break to pray and neither have any of my friends or Muslims I know. (The only exception would be for Friday prayers which would have been ideally done during a lunch break or agreed to by an employer with time made up elsewhere but I have never done this).

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 18:01

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 17:56

I find it deeply irritating. There are breaks and lunchtime opportunities where students, if they wish, can pray. There is no need to bring it into the school day, which will affect, disrupt and compromise the education of millions of children.

I don’t support further legal action at all. For goodness sake, you sign your children up to a school or homeschool if your religious beliefs impose strict routines that can not be facilitated in any reasonable way by a standard school.

We need to get a grip - I fear this will be even worse if we end up with a Labour government pandering constantly to exactly this kind of thing.

At this school there aren't, that was the point. The children wanted to pray during their break, but as PPs have explained , this led to students putting pressure on those who didn't want to pray.

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:00

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/04/2024 17:58

Ok, it is a state funded school, that's what I meant. But the headteacher is the headteacher and her rules obviously go.

There are lots of pupils in this school who say they are happy with the discipline here.

Her rules go up to a point. If she breaks the law, it is not acceptable. The pupil was asking a resonable question - is this rule in line with British law.

We have an advanced legal system and it is right to use it.

Why so many people want us to be a bloody dictatorship I do not know.

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/04/2024 18:00

FlexIt · 16/04/2024 17:56

So posters don’t think teenaged pupils should be permitted to pray during their breaks? How utterly bizarre. You do know many non religious secondary schools have religious clubs? Where pupils will certainly be praying according to their various religions.
And adults are always permitted to
pray in their work breaks, I don’t understand the view that it should be different for young people.

Adults are permitted to pray in their work breaks, presumably if it is not excessive and doesn't interfere with their work.

The pupils could have prayed outside school, at home, before or after school.

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/04/2024 17:58

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 17:56

I find it deeply irritating. There are breaks and lunchtime opportunities where students, if they wish, can pray. There is no need to bring it into the school day, which will affect, disrupt and compromise the education of millions of children.

I don’t support further legal action at all. For goodness sake, you sign your children up to a school or homeschool if your religious beliefs impose strict routines that can not be facilitated in any reasonable way by a standard school.

We need to get a grip - I fear this will be even worse if we end up with a Labour government pandering constantly to exactly this kind of thing.

So don't vote Labour.

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 17:58

FlexIt · 16/04/2024 17:56

So posters don’t think teenaged pupils should be permitted to pray during their breaks? How utterly bizarre. You do know many non religious secondary schools have religious clubs? Where pupils will certainly be praying according to their various religions.
And adults are always permitted to
pray in their work breaks, I don’t understand the view that it should be different for young people.

Because it will constantly disrupt other children’s education and is unfair on them and the teachers.

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/04/2024 17:58

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 17:55

It is NOT their school. It is a state-funded school and it has to uphold the law, they are definitely not allowed to do exactly as they please.

What a peculiar attitude - as if a school can just ride roughshod over the rights of UK citizens. The case went to court, the court found in the school's favour, it was fine to ask the question.

Ok, it is a state funded school, that's what I meant. But the headteacher is the headteacher and her rules obviously go.

There are lots of pupils in this school who say they are happy with the discipline here.

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 17:58

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 17:56

I find it deeply irritating. There are breaks and lunchtime opportunities where students, if they wish, can pray. There is no need to bring it into the school day, which will affect, disrupt and compromise the education of millions of children.

I don’t support further legal action at all. For goodness sake, you sign your children up to a school or homeschool if your religious beliefs impose strict routines that can not be facilitated in any reasonable way by a standard school.

We need to get a grip - I fear this will be even worse if we end up with a Labour government pandering constantly to exactly this kind of thing.

It was at lunchtime, that's the point.

Pandering to what kind of thing - people being a little bit different to you? Are you really so scared that someone might pray in a different way to you?

FlexIt · 16/04/2024 17:56

So posters don’t think teenaged pupils should be permitted to pray during their breaks? How utterly bizarre. You do know many non religious secondary schools have religious clubs? Where pupils will certainly be praying according to their various religions.
And adults are always permitted to
pray in their work breaks, I don’t understand the view that it should be different for young people.

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 17:56

I find it deeply irritating. There are breaks and lunchtime opportunities where students, if they wish, can pray. There is no need to bring it into the school day, which will affect, disrupt and compromise the education of millions of children.

I don’t support further legal action at all. For goodness sake, you sign your children up to a school or homeschool if your religious beliefs impose strict routines that can not be facilitated in any reasonable way by a standard school.

We need to get a grip - I fear this will be even worse if we end up with a Labour government pandering constantly to exactly this kind of thing.

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 17:55

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/04/2024 17:53

It's their school, their rules.

They are entitled to do exactly as they pleased. A school is above all place for learning, not for religious praying.

It is NOT their school. It is a state-funded school and it has to uphold the law, they are definitely not allowed to do exactly as they please.

What a peculiar attitude - as if a school can just ride roughshod over the rights of UK citizens. The case went to court, the court found in the school's favour, it was fine to ask the question.

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 17:55

EarringsandLipstick · 16/04/2024 17:45

And I would be astonished if all employers allow prayer breaks.

You wouldn't would you OP?

Of course employers allow prayer breaks. There may be guidance around timing & location but an employer cannot prevent expression of religion

On this particular case, I've become increasingly less a fan of this ultra-rigorous overly disciplined approach in general, and this school in particular. It in no way prepares students for the world.

Praying should have been allowed; the bullying & intimidation if occurring should have been dealt with separately.

There is no requirement to allow prayer breaks at work, although many employers do.

This school is interesting because it does get the results and the strict ethos is (probably) the reason so many Muslim families choose it, but I agree I can't see how it's preparing children for life.

I'm pleased it won the case on this issue though.

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/04/2024 17:54

FlexIt · 16/04/2024 17:52

@Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain why are you repeating yourself? Obviously I disagree with you.

My point which I thought was quite clear is that I’m very surprised the school’s right to set its own rules overrides the human right to expression of religion (during non teaching periods).
This appears a very slippery slope and I hope it is challenged so that there can be full clarity.

I was repeating myself because obviously you don't get it.

FlexIt · 16/04/2024 17:53

Any bullying that went on is surely irrelevant to the outcome here, either the school is entitled to set such rules or it is not?

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