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AIBU?

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To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

586 replies

KTheGrey · 16/04/2024 15:27

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

OP posts:
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GoldenTrout · 16/04/2024 18:32

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:28

It cost the taxpayer millions, most of whom will not support this case.

Of course it didn't cost millions. You're making that up.

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:31

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:28

It cost the taxpayer millions, most of whom will not support this case.

I don't much care whether the majority of taxpayers support it, there are cases I don't support at times, that is what an advanced legal system is all about.

Do you not understand why this matters - do you think you personally will always be in agreement with the mob?

GoldenTrout · 16/04/2024 18:31

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:25

They don’t have the right for ‘special arrangements’ for prayer throughout the school day. They can close their eyes and contact God/Allah whenever they like!

Why not, if it doesn't affect anyone else? Lots of schools are happy to make a room available during break times for non-denominational prayers, and it works fine. Michaela's reasoning was something to do with not wanting children to be allowed to come into the school building during break times, but if it's much-vaunted disciplinary methods aren't up to policing that then clearly they're not as great as they make out.

The fact is that, in Islam, just closing their eyes to pray anywhere isn't enough. So if you're not prepared to make easy arrangements to accommodate their reasonable requirements, isn't that discrimination?

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:30

Johannalaw · 16/04/2024 18:26

"The question asked in court was whether they had a right to pray."

That was not the question that was asked. Don't twist the case into a strawman issue.

The case was brought that the prayer ban was interfering with their right to practice their religion, wasn't it?

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 18:29

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:25

They don’t have the right for ‘special arrangements’ for prayer throughout the school day. They can close their eyes and contact God/Allah whenever they like!

They can't as Msulims though. The compulsory prayers need to be said out loud.

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:28

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:26

That question was rightly asked in court and answered.

So it is good it went to court.

Well done to the complainants and it is great we live in such a system where this is possible.

It cost the taxpayer millions, most of whom will not support this case.

gloriagloria · 16/04/2024 18:28

Rosscameasdoody · 16/04/2024 18:09

Actually they were going against everything the school stood for by way of inclusion. The students organising the playground prayer meetings were also threatening and intimidating other students, which is why the ban was imposed.

Then why not tackle the intimidation and bullying seeing as they claim to be so successful at engendering a climate of respect and kindness rather than just banning the prayers? I'm not religious and have no dog in the race, but while I'm all for discipline I do wonder quite how inclusive their much-vaunted "zero tolerance" for any deviation from the extensive rules is for some children with special needs or who are neurodiverse.

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:27

Johannalaw · 16/04/2024 18:24

Actually it's the position of the Enlightenment. There is also an almost complete separation of church and state in the UK bar one or two archaic technicalities which is why this judgement happened and must happened.

You can practice whatever religion you want so long as you don't impose your religious beliefs on others. It's not difficult.

Exactly.

School should be a protected space away from religious teachings of any kind so the students may remain open minded about all aspects of life, and given the chance to develop their own ideas and evolution.

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:26

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:25

They don’t have the right for ‘special arrangements’ for prayer throughout the school day. They can close their eyes and contact God/Allah whenever they like!

That question was rightly asked in court and answered.

So it is good it went to court.

Well done to the complainants and it is great we live in such a system where this is possible.

Johannalaw · 16/04/2024 18:26

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:22

No one is dismissing bullying.

The bullying was not the subject of the court case, even if it was discussed in the court case.

The question asked in court was whether they had a right to pray.

"The question asked in court was whether they had a right to pray."

That was not the question that was asked. Don't twist the case into a strawman issue.

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/04/2024 18:26

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:22

It costs millions and we need the money for hospitals and school roofs maybe?

I actually do think (though it sticks in my gullet a bit) that yes, this mother and daughter should have been allowed to bring this case to court with legal aid funding, as that is a right of theirs to be able to do so (don't quote me on which or what, so long since I studied law, not as a lawyer!) and a while ago since I worked with lawyers).

If we had a blanket rule of not allowing people to bring cases to court, this would not be right.

There are many things which taxpayers' money is wasted on which could be brought up for debate.

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:25

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:22

It costs millions and we need the money for hospitals and school roofs maybe?

Oh for goodness' sake.

We need justice too.

Have you really fallen for the Tories' line that we can have no freedom because it costs money?

GoldenTrout · 16/04/2024 18:25

Changing the school admission rules to exclude just one child out of some sort of grudge towards her relatives would set a really dangerous precedent.

Sandwichblock · 16/04/2024 18:25

It does seem a bit sledge hammer to crack a nut, to ban praying because it caused bullying. Should schools ban football because it can lead to bullying, or maths if children are teased about their scores? Surely you deal with the bullying rather than ban the "reason"?

I'm glad this school is able to enforce it's own rules, but again, I do wonder how all this prepares children for life.

mids2019 · 16/04/2024 18:25

We are moving slowly over the decades away from faith schooling in a lot of respects as Christianity fades in terms of devoted practice.

I think we should go forward to ensure schools are not conflated with places of worship or at risk of developing a religious ethos when a school is specifically secular.

I think the court ruling allows schools to feel safe from religious infiltration of all forms

Religion can be divisive schooling shouldn't

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:25

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:22

No one is dismissing bullying.

The bullying was not the subject of the court case, even if it was discussed in the court case.

The question asked in court was whether they had a right to pray.

They don’t have the right for ‘special arrangements’ for prayer throughout the school day. They can close their eyes and contact God/Allah whenever they like!

Johannalaw · 16/04/2024 18:24

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:17

This is not the UK position. That is the French position.

Actually it's the position of the Enlightenment. There is also an almost complete separation of church and state in the UK bar one or two archaic technicalities which is why this judgement happened and must happened.

You can practice whatever religion you want so long as you don't impose your religious beliefs on others. It's not difficult.

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:24

ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 16/04/2024 18:22

This. And we must be able to ask such questions in court. I don't get why so many posters are against that.

Many people do not understand the legal system, which prompts a lot of fear.

Personally I like to know if my rights were trampled, I could test things in court. Better than the opposite - forced to do what the ruler says!

Soontobe60 · 16/04/2024 18:23

EarringsandLipstick · 16/04/2024 18:14

I think an employer could object to prayer breaks if they interfered with the employee's work and if they were proved to be excessive

@Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain

Well, that's why I mentioned timing & location.

And the rest of your post supports that point - an accommodation should be made, and this wasn't done in the school, and it could have. However the ethos of the school is to operate in black & white, no room for nuance.

Why should it be made? It’s a school, not a Mosque.

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/04/2024 18:23

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:20

It’s also a U.K. position - freedom to choose and not be coerced into any type of religion.

Which is why, presumably a lot of other cultures and religions choose to move to the UK and other Western countries from other countries where they would be more oppressed, e.g. Iran.

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:22

ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 16/04/2024 18:22

This. And we must be able to ask such questions in court. I don't get why so many posters are against that.

It costs millions and we need the money for hospitals and school roofs maybe?

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:22

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:19

We certainly should NOT be dismissing the bullying and intimidation in this context. This is one step away from vigilante action!

This is pivotal to the court case.
The children could have continued undisturbed in quiet prayer in groups less than four (as per usual school rules) had this not happened.

Its a secular school - the very point of such a thing is to give young people a broad education so they can learn independent thinking skills.

The child could catch up with their prayers or move to a school more suited to them.

No one is dismissing bullying.

The bullying was not the subject of the court case, even if it was discussed in the court case.

The question asked in court was whether they had a right to pray.

DomPom47 · 16/04/2024 18:22

Parents knew it was a secular school when they signed up. The child can catch up on their prayer when they get home as the many Muslim students at the school do so. I really hope if there is a challenge that tax payers money is not used to fund it.
Find it shocking that she would keep her daughter and send a younger sibling there if this is such a big issue for them. There are plenty of other schools including schools with a Muslim ethos that they can send their daughters too.

ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 16/04/2024 18:22

LlynTegid · 16/04/2024 18:16

The court has to decide on what the law says, not on whether or not we or anyone else thinks is fair. It seems from what I read of the judgment that they had done so.

This. And we must be able to ask such questions in court. I don't get why so many posters are against that.

Polishedshoesalways · 16/04/2024 18:20

calligraphee · 16/04/2024 18:17

This is not the UK position. That is the French position.

It’s also a U.K. position - freedom to choose and not be coerced into any type of religion.