To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

Just look around the world and see what religious dogma does, particularly to women. I may have missed some, but all the main religions I can think of subjugate women, give power and control to men and are very prone to corruption. Schools should be secular and religion should be personal and private.

bombastix. I agree. I don’t want any religious dogma sanctioned or accommodated in the UK. Too many people have suffered enough at the hands of it already. We need to move on.

Schools have to allow Christian worship, though, don't they? In theory.

Maybe we live a country that is culturally Christian but I don't think many of us posting would have the appetite to return to the kind of dogma we had in previous centuries. This is the thing that gets missed out in discussions of religious freedom. Britain had a long time of not being free about it at all. I don't want it back and endorsed by the state.

mids2019

I agree with your comments. The UK do far more than many other countries to accommodate those of different races and faiths. Try getting an Urdu, Punjabi interpreter in a German hospital or government department for example, and it will really take some doing. You rarely get governmemt documents in a whole load of languages.

I think the accommodation we allow for here is pretty good. When people come to the UK without English then they can still access the information and advice they need. Kids can wear Hijabs, Kippahs, Turbans etc. Medical settings provide modesty shorts for women undergoing gynae and bowel procedures. You can get translators to attend important appointments and schools provide halal foods. Recent newcomer to a school are buddied up with someone to look out for them and extra English classes are provided and generally kids are welcomed within their school environment as they absolutely should be. There are things that need more action such as kids being able to wear their hair in afros without discrimination. In the main I think the UK does pretty well in accommodating the rights of other religions and ethnicities. We need to and should do a lot better as there is clearly one heck of a problem with institutional racism within the police and government who display alarming Islamophobia/Antisemitism. We do not need prayer areas in secular schools and I’m not changing my mind about that.

We have come a long way since my DGPs arrived here as refugees, speaking only Russian/Yiddish, at various ages between 8 - 11, plonked in a classroom with around 40 kids and left to crack on with zero help. We equally don’t need to go to the other end of the spectrum with the religious needs of everyone considered within a school setting.

We live in a predominantly Christian country, although admittedly most are not practicing Christians. The children in this case were laying down their blazers in the playground to prayer during breaks, which was totally inappropriate. There are many other schools in the region who pander to this sort of nonsense, so why choose to send your children to a school who does not facilitate it? I absolutely wouldn’t blame the head for blocking the second child’s attendance, and in fact think they should have the right to expel the first child, as clearly the relationship between school and this family has broken down.

@mids2019 - it's a very misguided approach to imagine that Britain has got any appetite to introduce religious schools. Literally all our history tells us it's a recipe for division. Those people are going to be disappointed

We have a British value of freedom of religion which is precious and actually only possessed by relatively few countries.

However we do not have freedom from. religion i.e. other faiths and atheism. We cannot avoid our children living in a society where people practise all faiths and none. We also do not have the right to impose our beliefs on others or expect society at large to adhere to our particular religious standards.

I think this where people of faith especially non extreme Christian faith including Islam struggle.

Religious practice seems quite isolated if everyone doesn't do the same. A Muslim man may require his spouse to dress modestly wearing a head dress etc. but that idea of modesty only works if all women in the surrounds do the same. A Muslim man may be literally religiously wedded to modesty in women as a part of his faith but he can't demand that more liberal women do that

Secularity in society to some us and affront and that include schools.

And, like I said, your view of racism differs to mine.

And mine. It isn’t being racist imo to not arrange prayer areas in a secular state school. I’ve been on the receiving end of vile antisemitism throughout my life. I defend racism when I see or hear it. I hate any minority group being singled out, targeted or abused. Not facilitating a prayer area in this situation is not racist.

This mum is planning to take the school to court over something else she doesn’t like, her lawyers have apparently sent a letter to Michaela school. I really wouldn’t blame Michaela for trying to block admission to the second child. Can you imagine the amount of time it takes up for SLT to deal with this stuff, a court case a year.

My children were at a school which decided to adopt a strict uniform policy. We had a few months notice and the summer holidays to buy any new clothing/shoes. Yes, we had the choice to follow the new rules or withdraw our children. Schools get new staff, start and stop extra-curricular activities, drop A Level courses etc all the time. The changes won't be to everyone's taste, all the time but that's life.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Wow....I guess my children are lucky!

I guess mine go to a secular school and I don't think the RE teacher is that religious. It religion and world views now...(times change)

@bombastix

I think one elephant in the room is that there are 4 million Muslims in this country and just over 100 Islamic schools. 40 000 Muslims per school.

Granted these are not all children but it can be seen there is a huge demand for Islamic schools and I see that in my own small town.

There is a Muslim community but no faith school and the local government has refused one for decades. The frustration amongst the Muslim community is palpable.

You therefore get parents wanting a devout education adhering to the tenets of Islam having to send their children to secular schools. The parents will support anything to change the ethos of the school and I wonder if this court case is perhaps an example of that

That is disgusting.

One reason I don't like religion to be discussed in e.g. workplaces is one day I was in work with 2 Muslim young men, both of whom from the outside you'd say were moderate Muslims, both dressed in Western clothes, drunk alcohol, took illegal drugs, slept with white women before marriage.

One day at lunch we were talking about honour killings as I'd recently seen 'Murdered by my Father' about an honour killing and had read about the case. I asked both of them if they'd ever do this and both of them were silent. So they didn't say that they would never do this. From that day forward, I lost a bit of respect for them.

One of them, however, he was lovely to me, when I was subjected to abuse from a strange mad man I'd been dating and who proceeded to email my office (!) with what I'd done, luckily I'd handed in notice and was leaving anyway. He was utterly sympathetic to me, really kind and actually took me out for a friendly coffee and told me real men didn't behave like this man had done.

@Itsdeepitsblue exactly! In some Islamic countries (example Maldives) it is prohibited to display or openly practise a different religion. Imagine going to a Maldivian school and reciting "The Lord's Prayer" or carrying a bible. Not the point of this thread, I know.

And, like I said, your view of racism differs to mine.

You are seeing racism as mostly against black or brown people. I am seeing it and indeed have seen it and experienced it myself by those colours against myself, who is white, but possibly Jewish on my nana's side. In fact, when I was 15/16 and looked quite Jewish (curly darker hair) I was verbally abused by 2 teenage boys on a bus and called a 'Jewish bitch', this really shocked me because we didn't really live in a Jewish area, though a short bus/car ride away, there were Jewish people living and working there. They probably called me this because they'd been trying to chat me up and had failed.

Lots of people like the school because it allows moderate muslims (muslims are half the school ) to fight against more extreme ones and their children will not be forced into being ultra religious - that is seen as a plus point not a negative one and I agree with that. I think the judgment is worth reading by anyone who has time. https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Judgement-R-v-Michaela-Community-Schools-Trust.pdf

I would like all schools to be non religious and only teach religion as a factual subject - but I don't see the problem with providing a space for students to pray if they choose to. It's all very well saying go to a different school if you don't like it but that's not always easy when you might not live near another school or you might not get into the school you really want or the only other option might be a failing school. There are not endless choices of good schools to cater for all, close to everyone.

It sounds like there are huge problems at this school though and it is ruled with an iron fist - pupils not allowed in groups of more than 4, have to be silent in corridors. I think they are tackling this all wrong if they think banning kids from practising their religion, keeping them in silence and away from each other is going to help bring harmony. They need to tackle individual issues on a case by case basis and not have these mass rulings IMO. They need to increase empathy and understanding not make divisive rulings.

I wouldn't want my kids at this school, it might be great academically but it sounds like there are major social issues.

Yes, the cut to legal aid is a serious step backwards for the country.

Oh, that's always interesting to hear about other religions, and what people get up to in their spare time off MN (something which I keep telling myself I must do more of, not flounce though!).

A successful school considers respect & tolerance, and looks for ways to accommodate preferences where possible

When it comes to religious practices I don’t agree with accommodating preferences where possible. Respect that these kids are Muslim/Jewish/Hindu/Sikh/Buddhist etc etc and this is what they believe and celebrate. We respect everyone’s beliefs etc etc. we don’t need areas for kids to break off to carry out ablutions and prayers. Or for Jewish kids to take longer in the loo because they need to say a prayer beforehand etc. School is about general education and life skills. We don’t need to be doing all this accommodation imo.

I guess that would have been this one, @EsmaCannonball?

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/teacher-subjected-to-brutal-attack-four-muslims-jailed-6405727.html

IIRC, an RE teacher was very violently attacked a few years ago for 'disrespecting Islam.' The 'disrespect' was teaching about other religions to Islamic students and for being a non-Muslim teaching about Islam.

Ha ha! You are very funny. The hardline Muslims I know of (and I've known a couple of them), they don't brook their children being less religious than they as a family or if they do, it's accepted for a period of time, but when e.g. marriage comes into question, the child is expected to do as they say, or be banished from the family, or to have lots of arguments around this.

Of course though, some children of some families are more religious than others. I don't believe that secondary school is the time or place though for them to be indoctrinated by their peers into becoming stricter or not in following their religion. As I've said before on this thread, school is for learning.

Schools have RE lessons to teach the factual aspects of faith and how to critically question them. The lessons are part of opening young people's minds and expanding perspectives

Apologies for being a bit off topic, but while I agree with the principle here I'm not sure even RE "education" is safe

But then I was taught it by someone (not muslim this time) who regarded the whole thing as an opportunity to gain brownie points from her religious leader for creating conversions