To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

It's quite amazing the number of Muslims joining the Labour party in wards where there is a high Muslim concentration who don't necessarily have hardened views on public services, taxation, transport etc. but really do have an interest in education and faith schools.

local Muslim leaders will offer a black vote for councillors if they are actively willing to aid the planning permission for faith schools. There isn't a majority to make change locally but that doesn't mean the Muslim community is happy with non faith or Christian schools.

It doesn't help school coherence when you have a group calling the ruling council party Islamaphobi c for ruling out such schools as I think it undermines the school in some ways as it is obvious parents would really prefer alternative teaching

@KTheGrey

I agree there are possible academic advantages for girls in single sex schools and I guess this is why successful schools in the grammar and private sector have held onto this status. I don't know if any future new single sex schools will be established though.

I do know that Muslims of my acquaintance sorely wish to have more single sex education more aligned to their values and do lobby for it at some levels. A pp made the point that Muslims were choosing RC single sex schools (quite rare?) for their children's education. I am not sure in reality if the parents are entirely happy with their Muslim children having to sit respectfully through Christian service though but maybe that is the choice they were faced with.

Going back to the original post if we view prayer times as a religious right can't that he expanded to single sex education. It seems to me if you make a precedent of accepting one religious right then you could argue you should respect them all???

@WatermelonWaveclub

I think single sex education in the state of non grammar sector is increasingly rare so maybe Muslims will take every opportunity possible to get a single sex education. I know the single or separate sex element of education is important to Muslims as they feel there is danger of distraction and inappropriate relationships. (Teens are teens).

@WatermelonWaveclub

it may be that Muslim families that want the best for their children are making sacrifices to allow their children the best education possible. I actually think it is possibly the more broad minded Muslims that allow this. I wonder though if Muslims are using the RC ethos as a proxy for some of the Muslim ethos, making the best of it as they say?

That's interesting.

At my DD's RC high school there are many Muslim DC as I believe their parents like the school for being single sex and quite strict, along with excellent academic results.

The school has a policy of all DC taking part in the religious aspects of the school. Obviously non-RC DC don't take communion (they can choose to go up for a blessing if they wish) but they are expected to attend Mass. They don't have to say the prayers at the beginning of each class, but sit respectfully while they happen and everyone has to attend assembly even if they don't actually sing the hymns.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/mar/18/muslim-students-less-likely-to-be-awarded-top-class-degrees

There is also evidence being Muslim seems to result in poorer educational attainment at HE level. I do not for one minute believe Muslims are less intelligent than non Muslims or we have systematic religiously discriminatory marking schemes so what is the problem?

the problem in my opinion is that Muslims in specially women feel very uncomfortable socially in our secular university environments. Muslim women ideally would want to have single sex accommodation with fellow Muslims or at least students that share their lifestyle e.g. not drinking, partying, dating etc. It does not take a lot of thinking to see that this may be difficult in a lot of universities. I wonder if the sociall disconnect for Muslims results in an impediment to learning as there is a psychological impact from this feeling of potential alienation.

I was reading an article from a Muslim female student at Cambridge who said it was incredibly isolating and uncomfortable to be in a mixed sex college with a drinking culture including formal meals. It was a challenge to get halal food and the main worship building was Christian. There was also a feeling for Muslims that university is essentially a private education as they can't take out student loans due to interest.

overall Cambridge was not a pleasant experience and she found social solace during holidays moving back to her family and community. I wonder if this is the experience a lot of Muslims get at university and whether from more conservative families there may be pressure not to go?

I think the idea of schools having to provide collective worship comes from a time when the vast majority of the country were practising Christians or were expected to be Christian of some denomination. It is true Christian faith schools often have good reputations and possibly it is that they are in relatively affluent parts of towns of have historical records of success.

The question with collective worship then becomes collective worship for which religion and I think with the growth of Islam some schools will have to face this probkem. There is one Muslim girls who attends my daughter's C of E school but I believe she avoids Christian religious worship and possibly some aspects of PHSE.

There is a C of E school in the poorer part of our town which because of catchment has 40% Muslim attendance (maybe more now). This is the school which the community at large would want replaced with an Islamic faith school and there is a general community feeling it is incredibly discriminatory for Muslim parents to have to be 'forced' to send their children to a school which nominally supports another religion. The issue is brought up again and again in local elections.

We have Grammar schools here and the effect is that they thrive (and the faith schools) while the Comprehensives are awful. Hence why I had to send my DD to a faith school as our local comp could not meet her needs.

I agree. it is the same with teh grammar school issue - very unfair that whre I am from the NE we abolished them 1970 but other parts of teh Uk have them. Yet we are all one nation and pay taxes so surely state schools should offer the same either only comps o r else always have grammars or only secular schools with rules about collective worship removed or else every area allowed some religious state schools if they wish (obviously some areas may have no hindus so not surprising they don't have a hindu state school I suppose); but it certainly seems to be a bit different around the UK.

I agree. However, many posters have stated that DC should get an education without religion anywhere near it. All I'm saying is that is not happening now. Schools must (in theory) provide daily collective worship and many parents have to put their DC in faith schools that spend a lot of time on religion. Every DC does not get the opportunity for a non- religious education in this country.

I like the fact we have choices in the UK. I accept that London where the school of this thread has vastly more choice than say NE England where I am from, but there can be choices. There is always a choice of home education for example (which i think is banned in Germany).
As the UK is about 96% atheist/christian combined together is it not surprising if most state schools are either secular or C of E or Catholic. However we do have jewish muslim and hindu state schools too. A lot of them will be not too far from where I live which is not very far from the Michaela school as it is a very mixed area.
I believe in freedom for parents and that includes their right to bring up their child (as long as complying with the law) in the way they think is best even if that is utterly at odds with my own views. I don't everyone necessarily shares my views on freedom. However my freedom comes with my right to tell all religions from the Jehovah's witnesses to any other religion that they are wrong to go for the lack of equality they hold so dear.

Another question is to what extent Islam holds pupils back at school. It's noted that educational performance of Muslims isn't as good as their non Muslim peers at a population level and I dont think this is down to discriminatory marking.

The over concentration on faith means that pupils put faith first and education second. As long as you are an observant Muslim then qualifications though important maybe a secondary consideration. We also have what some would refer to as a western syllabus with not a lot of focus on the regions where Islam originated or their languages.

Maybe some Muslims are prepared to compromise faith schooling as they are starting to realise religious zeal does not necessarily correlate with learning goals

@Foxesandsquirrels

Absolutely agree with your thoughts on freedom.

I guess Muslims feel they are not truly free to practise their religion as to do it in a manner suitable to them then it has to be in an Islamic society.

I suppose the lack of freedom manifests itself in not having guarantees for prayer time, lack of calls to prayer etc. but as you say there is always a compromise. If the compromise is to difficult then division in society becomes more likely which is not where we should be going.

@WatermelonWaveclub

If you do have religious education Christianity 'fits' in better as we are a Christian country.

The problem with Islamic faith schools is ultimately you are enforcing a religion which can't be followed to an extent Muslims want due to the nature of our society.

At my DD's faith school there is active worship, prayers 4 times a day, Mass a couple of times a term plus services in the school chapel. Religious studies for 2 and a half hours a week.

@mids2019 this is my point. Free society is a myth. There is always someone that will lose something they were able to do before, in an attempt to give a freedom to someone else. Deciding who loses something they used to be able to do/can do elsewhere freely is the difficulty. This is why what Michaela School does is so difficult and the letter Katharine wrote in response is brilliant.
Whether we like it or not, the country is CofE/Christian. The moral values seen across the country aren't in line with that either. Attempting to give freedom to everything and everyone is fine, but there are consequences to everything. There's no ultimate freedom, it just doesn't exist and it seems to be uncomfortable fact for many in this country.

I agree with your point. But many posters seem to have the idea that all DC are getting an education free from religion or at least those who's parents don't want religion as part of their education. We need to look at what is happening in many schools where Christianity is a part of the schooling to a smaller or greater extent.

The other interesting point is the pupil was encouraged to pray in the playground by a visitor to the school. As the school suggests pupils are constantly supervised it's odd that nothing was said to the visitor and pupil at the time he/she was encouraging prayer in the playground.

@WatermelonWaveclub

I think a lot of faith schooling is a legacy of more religious times and in terms of Christian faith schools there has been a transition from active worship to ethos if anything.

I don't think simply because we have legacies from a very religious past we should set up faith schools for other faiths without very careful thought.

@Foxesandsquirrels

It's an interesting point that a free society needs compromise from all citizens with regard to their own culture and beliefs. The issue with religion is in a fundamental sense the devout won't compromise; history is littered with martyrs.

If compromises aren't reached you have an inherent tension within the state and you can see multiple examples around the world.

To an extent Muslims make compromised when living in a largely secular country but these are compromises in reality they dislike. I think ultimately faiths want legal protection which in our constitution isn't given.

We don't have blasphemy laws
Divorce is legal
Alcohol and gambling is legal
We have liberal towards sexuality

I think these are examples of areas where some Muslims would ultimately like to change to support the continuance of their faith. It must be extremely difficult living what we would term a puritan lifestyle in a country not geared up to it.

I talked to a devout Muslim one day and he explained how sinful the UK in general was and it is a continuous battle to shield himself from activities he were an afront to him and God

I find this interesting as I believe in England and Wales 'secular' schools are required by law to provide daily collective worship. Unless this has changed?

Also there are many faith schools and sometimes there is no alternative but to send a DC there considering the lack of choice many/most? parents have when applying for schools. My DC is at a RC school and a lot of time is taken up with religion. They pray 4 times a day as one example.

So not quite sure how in practice it is 'protected and enshrined in law that all children should have unfettered access to education without the constant interruption and interference of prayer time'

@mids2019 to be honest reading your post all I could think of was ultimate freedom doesn't exist and people who believe it does, are kidding themselves OR are benefitting from the freedoms given to them. However, someone else will be paying for those freedoms. The price being erosion of at least some level of their beliefs or identity or tradition.

@Xenia

some interesting points.

I think increasing secularization would be welcome but we have to consider that because immigration and biirth rate the number of Muslims is going to increase. The reasons that there is such an inhomogeneity in Muslm population in localities is that simply Muslims tend form quite concentrated communities mainly in urban areas. Having a prevelant Muslm community allows some barrier to the secular pressures you mention.so

I do think the resistance to secularization is intense though and Islam used the same strategies as the ultra conservative religions and cults you mention. Ostracism, even
shame are powerful tools. Groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses survive through insularity and being opaque to the community at large and we see the same with some Muslims.

we have to be careful not to teach the levels of polarisation that have been seen in France where the far right does very well relatively in anti Mulsim feeling and I think this is driven by the fear of a secular state being threatened.

One thing I did consider was that when historically you have large Muslim minorities then you often have a split in state where there has to be a regions state to accommodate Islam. India is an example with a split into India and Pakistan which was quite violent, Yugoslavia split and the Muslim community gained its own state effectively. Turkey has become more Islamic in nature with secular values again felt to be a threat.

Obviously we are a long way from that in the UK but this shows you have to be realistic about multi relgous and multicultural states and there has to be a robust framework to allow it to work and that includes such fundamental things such as this of law.

Not expressly relevant but go to 57minutes in on this to hear the kind of influences some children have at home in terms of some men's views https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/minted-minds/conversations-that-matter-WsAC4UBleP3/#google_vignette