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To nominate the principle authors of the CASS review for this..

407 replies

NameChangeCass · 14/04/2024 09:47

“Advocates of evidence based medicine have criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute.”

https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459.short?fbclid=IwAR0hTt57o-yFS61aJE-IGCpKSPaDs--rdrPlbiby_wBCF1czpAWDaCcAEcM_aem_ATiWMtvZxiSzw8pj9CX271gyDByuMHTOKwQskBcCXx9aZOj1IPusHJ_z79olcRiFlhE

Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials

Objectives To determine whether parachutes are effective in preventing major trauma related to gravitational challenge. Design Systematic review of randomised controlled trials. Data sources: Medline, Web of Science, Embase, and the Cochrane Library...

https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459.short?fbclid=IwAR0hTt57o-yFS61aJE-IGCpKSPaDs--rdrPlbiby_wBCF1czpAWDaCcAEcM_aem_ATiWMtvZxiSzw8pj9CX271gyDByuMHTOKwQskBcCXx9aZOj1IPusHJ_z79olcRiFlhE

OP posts:
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NameChangeCass · 14/04/2024 14:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2024 14:48

You might not, but those of us seeking to support children to access trans healthcare do.

No, it's something you believe. It's an ideological position.

My position is based on what I know from evidence, from conducting research with trans children, their families, and professionals and service providers working directly with trans people.
it does not come from my own experience, from preconceived ideas (about gender and bodies), from fear of people different to me, from culture, from politics, from influencers or organisations, or from what I’ve read in the media. It is not an “ideology”, it is an observation of the empirical world.

OP posts:
Kirova · 14/04/2024 14:49

NameChangeCass · 14/04/2024 14:36

Honestly? Because we know that withholding vital health services from an extremely vulnerable group of children is only going to cause them immeasurable suffering.
Because we know that PBs are a safe and effective medicine that can help until children are ready for HRT. Because we know that the assault on transgender medicine is based on erroneous and flawed politically driven beliefs that being trans is not a real and legitimate thing and this is so so wrong.

The issue is though, that puberty blockers were used to give children "time to think". But apparently, 99% ot them ended up thinking the same thing, which is logically improbable. Putting a child on a medicalised pathway and arresting their natural physiological and psychological development doesn't "freeze time", it just freezes the child's development while time moves on.

So, I know it's often argued that PBs are reversible, but it seems that the pathway they put the children onto is not reversible.

I think it's natural to feel discomfort when your body starts changing. I remember being quite freaked out about growing breasts (although I'm still a double A cup today so it turned out I didn't have too much to worry about). It doesn't necessarily equate to gender confusion. I hated my freckles as a teenager, it doesn't mean that the only appropriate action would have been to get them bleached off.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2024 14:48

You might not, but those of us seeking to support children to access trans healthcare do.

No, it's something you believe. It's an ideological position.

Nellodee · 14/04/2024 14:47

I really think you need to examine your relationship with the truth, op. I genuinely mean this. You seem to be someone who values evidence (or at least, identifies as such). Try to step outside of your preconceptions for a moment, and just think; “What if I am wrong?”

Just THINK.

NameChangeCass · 14/04/2024 14:45

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2024 14:41

We don't know any of those things but nice try.

You might not, but those of us seeking to support children to access trans healthcare do.
A pp asked why there are adults supporting this. I was responding to that.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 14/04/2024 14:44

NameChangeCass · 14/04/2024 14:36

Honestly? Because we know that withholding vital health services from an extremely vulnerable group of children is only going to cause them immeasurable suffering.
Because we know that PBs are a safe and effective medicine that can help until children are ready for HRT. Because we know that the assault on transgender medicine is based on erroneous and flawed politically driven beliefs that being trans is not a real and legitimate thing and this is so so wrong.

We don't know any of those things however 🫠

Why, in the clear absence of evidence, are you saying that?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2024 14:42

But again, if you think there are convincing studies that have been disregarded @NameChangeCass please post links to these specific studies, or an example, so we can read them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2024 14:41

We don't know any of those things but nice try.

ArabellaScott · 14/04/2024 14:40

withholding vital health services

Unevidenced medical interventions are not 'health services'.

Lupron is a horrific drug. I've had a friend decline it despite late stage terminal prostate cancer, because of the side effects.

The Cass Report shows there is no evidence to support the assertion that PBs are safe or effective.

NameChangeCass · 14/04/2024 14:36

TheKeatingFive · 14/04/2024 14:26

If someone could help me understand how this came to be the case, I'd be very grateful. Because it blows my mind

Honestly? Because we know that withholding vital health services from an extremely vulnerable group of children is only going to cause them immeasurable suffering.
Because we know that PBs are a safe and effective medicine that can help until children are ready for HRT. Because we know that the assault on transgender medicine is based on erroneous and flawed politically driven beliefs that being trans is not a real and legitimate thing and this is so so wrong.

OP posts:
MeDaughterMerope · 14/04/2024 14:34

TheKeatingFive · 14/04/2024 14:26

If someone could help me understand how this came to be the case, I'd be very grateful. Because it blows my mind

Power. There are various groups pushing this. Use your imagination, why would people want a crop of young people with arrested physical and mental development with low boundaries around sexuality. Many of them abused, neurodiverse or looked after children and already vulnerable.
Rather than marginalized those cheerleading this hold an enormous amount of power.

ArabellaScott · 14/04/2024 14:33

From Cass' Foreword:

'This is an area of remarkably weak evidence,
and yet results of studies are exaggerated or
misrepresented by people on all sides of the
debate to support their viewpoint. The reality is
that we have no good evidence on the long-term
outcomes of interventions to manage gender-
related distress.

It often takes many years before strongly
positive research findings are incorporated into
practice. There are many reasons for this. One
is that doctors can be cautious in implementing
new findings, particularly when their own clinical
experience is telling them the current approach
they have used over many years is the right one
for their patients. Quite the reverse happened
in the field of gender care for children. Based
on a single Dutch study, which suggested that
puberty blockers may improve psychological
wellbeing for a narrowly defined group of
children with gender incongruence, the practice
spread at pace to other countries. This was
closely followed by a greater readiness to start
masculinising/feminising hormones in mid-
teens, and the extension of this approach to a
wider group of adolescents who would not have
met the inclusion criteria for the original Dutch
study. Some practitioners abandoned normal
clinical approaches to holistic assessment,
which has meant that this group of young
people have been exceptionalised compared
to other young people with similarly complex
presentations. They deserve very much better.'

TheKeatingFive · 14/04/2024 14:26

VickyEadieofThigh · 14/04/2024 14:18

THIS. And we have terrifying numbers of adults ARGUING in FAVOUR of this.

If someone could help me understand how this came to be the case, I'd be very grateful. Because it blows my mind

VickyEadieofThigh · 14/04/2024 14:18

ArabellaScott · 14/04/2024 13:52

What I find utterly devastating is that children have been irreparably harmed over the past several years based on a body of evidence that, when assessed, has been found to be absolute bullshit, to use the correct medical terminology.

They've sterilised children. 15 year olds were shipped from Scotland to England to have their breasts amputated. Children have had body parts surgically removed. FOR NO REASON.

THIS. And we have terrifying numbers of adults ARGUING in FAVOUR of this.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 14/04/2024 14:17

So, parachutes were only invented about twenty years ago, and for tens of thousands of years before that, children were routinely thinned out by being dropped from a height at the age of twelve?

And those evil killjoys want to do away with the life-saving parachutes because of a few friction burns sterility, osteoporosis, and loss of sexual function.?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2024 14:17

See my surprised face @NecessaryScene

NecessaryScene · 14/04/2024 14:16

Just to make it absolutely clear - the document OP is highlighting is the initial NICE review that was undertaken in 2020 for Cass, before the "Cass Review" itself was conceived.

From the Cass Review:

3.1 In January 2020, a Policy Working Group (PWG) was established by NHS England to undertake a review of the published evidence on the use of puberty blockers and masculinising/feminising hormones in children and young people with gender dysphoria to inform a policy position on their future use.

3.2 Given the increasingly evident polarisation among clinical professionals, Dr Cass was asked to chair the group as a senior clinician with no prior involvement or fixed views in this area.

3.4 [...] the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) was commissioned to review the published evidence, again following a standardised protocol that has strict criteria about the quality of studies that can be included (NICE, 2020a; NICE, 2020b).

3.13 The evidence produced by the NICE reviews was inconclusive to the extent that NHS England could not form a policy position on the use of these medications.

3.16 The need for an independent review was clear and driven by the changing situation over the last 10-15 years: [...]

3.17 This independent Review was commissioned to make recommendations on models of care, appropriate treatment approaches, audit, long-term follow-up and research, as well as workforce requirements. It was also asked to explore the reasons for the increase in referrals and the change in the demographics of the referred population.

The Cass Review commissioned a load of new work (some of which was thwarted by non-cooperation).

That includes the Taylor et al papers which OP falsely claimed to be the source of the screenshots. The NICE work was just a precursor to the Cass Review and its papers, not really part of the review proper. But it's there as part of the evidence. (Because we wouldn't want to omit anything...)

There is deception layered on top of deception in this Cass critique. Which, like the gender clinic non-cooperation, is very telling.

Astariel · 14/04/2024 14:09

NameChangeCass · 14/04/2024 14:05

Observational evidence isn't useless but it's much more vulnerable to bias and difficult to draw reliable conclusions from, especially if small

yes of course this is true.

And it is also true that not using biased and ungeneralisable studies in a systematic review of evidence for healthcare practice.

NameChangeCass · 14/04/2024 14:05

ditalini · 14/04/2024 13:55

Observational evidence isn't useless but it's much more vulnerable to bias and difficult to draw reliable conclusions from, especially if small.

You should show how you've mitigated for these problems to avoid producing a low quality study that can't be used except by cheerleaders and media releases.

Observational evidence isn't useless but it's much more vulnerable to bias and difficult to draw reliable conclusions from, especially if small

yes of course this is true.

OP posts:
Tinysoxxx · 14/04/2024 14:02

OP I am presuming you are male and not a mother.

The ‘robust ladies’ of mumsnet you dismiss are also a collection of women who are doctors, medical researchers, biologists and teachers etc etc.

And of course we have personal experience of going through puberty as girls and, many of our children going through puberty.

Because many of us know scientific methodology - we know why Cass was right. Because many of us have been through the cohort of children who have had this ideology thrown at them, we know of what she’s talking about fits with our personal experience.

ArabellaScott · 14/04/2024 13:56

Imagine being someone who'd had life-changing treatment based on this pseudo science? Imagine that being your child?!

108 studies of low quality, and that's what the NHS based treatment on?!

That and WPATH's decision to pursue 'eunuch gender' as a valid identity, of course.

ditalini · 14/04/2024 13:55

Observational evidence isn't useless but it's much more vulnerable to bias and difficult to draw reliable conclusions from, especially if small.

You should show how you've mitigated for these problems to avoid producing a low quality study that can't be used except by cheerleaders and media releases.

ArabellaScott · 14/04/2024 13:53

And for god's sake WHY?

ArabellaScott · 14/04/2024 13:53

Who has created hundreds of bullshit articles with the aim of encouraging children to have body parts removed?

Astariel · 14/04/2024 13:52

I don’t think accuracy is high on this OP’s priority list.

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