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To nominate the principle authors of the CASS review for this..

407 replies

NameChangeCass · 14/04/2024 09:47

“Advocates of evidence based medicine have criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute.”

https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459.short?fbclid=IwAR0hTt57o-yFS61aJE-IGCpKSPaDs--rdrPlbiby_wBCF1czpAWDaCcAEcM_aem_ATiWMtvZxiSzw8pj9CX271gyDByuMHTOKwQskBcCXx9aZOj1IPusHJ_z79olcRiFlhE

Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials

Objectives To determine whether parachutes are effective in preventing major trauma related to gravitational challenge. Design Systematic review of randomised controlled trials. Data sources: Medline, Web of Science, Embase, and the Cochrane Library...

https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459.short?fbclid=IwAR0hTt57o-yFS61aJE-IGCpKSPaDs--rdrPlbiby_wBCF1czpAWDaCcAEcM_aem_ATiWMtvZxiSzw8pj9CX271gyDByuMHTOKwQskBcCXx9aZOj1IPusHJ_z79olcRiFlhE

OP posts:
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27
NonPlayerCharacter · 22/04/2024 13:06

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 13:02

You are right , it wasn’t exactly an “ad hominem* attack , but it’s an accusation that draws into question my character (eg “dishonest” - which couldn’t be further from the truth.
i know you said my “points” were dishonest, but what is the implication of using dishonest arguments after all?) Rather than engaging with my “points” you simply declare them “dishonest” and “weak attempts at sophistry”, and “tactics”. So what is the point?
it’s getting personal and accusatory and for those reasons I’m taking a pause for my mental wellbeing, as it does take its toll. All the best with the rest of your day 🤞🏻

Edited

The dishonesty is clear in the posts. You cannot claim to want the best available evidence while rejecting the best available evidence with no actual refutation, just because you do not like what it says.

It is further dishonesty to try to stop people debating with you from pointing out the dishonesty.

If you do not wish to be accused of being a dishonest person, do not give dishonest arguments.

TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 13:06

SinnerBoy · 22/04/2024 13:06

NameChangeCass · Today 12:27

I don’t really trust them to provide adequate care tbh, but I think they are better than nothing.

In the past, mercury was used to treat syphilis. Better than nothing, eh?

Ouch.

SinnerBoy · 22/04/2024 13:06

NameChangeCass · Today 12:27

I don’t really trust them to provide adequate care tbh, but I think they are better than nothing.

In the past, mercury was used to treat syphilis. Better than nothing, eh?

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 13:02

NonPlayerCharacter · 22/04/2024 12:56

You don't know what an ad hominim is, either. I'm literally attacking the argument, or rather the lack of it. Your "points" are dishonest and weak attempts at sophistry. That's why they don't stand and that's why you're employing the exact same tactics to avoid answering this. Because once you reject the best evidence while claiming to want the best evidence, well...what else is there?

You are right , it wasn’t exactly an “ad hominem* attack , but it’s an accusation that draws into question my character (eg “dishonest” - which couldn’t be further from the truth.
i know you said my “points” were dishonest, but what is the implication of using dishonest arguments after all?) Rather than engaging with my “points” you simply declare them “dishonest” and “weak attempts at sophistry”, and “tactics”. So what is the point?
it’s getting personal and accusatory and for those reasons I’m taking a pause for my mental wellbeing, as it does take its toll. All the best with the rest of your day 🤞🏻

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:59

NonPlayerCharacter · 22/04/2024 12:56

You don't know what an ad hominim is, either. I'm literally attacking the argument, or rather the lack of it. Your "points" are dishonest and weak attempts at sophistry. That's why they don't stand and that's why you're employing the exact same tactics to avoid answering this. Because once you reject the best evidence while claiming to want the best evidence, well...what else is there?

Perhaps OP is a transitioned person and is thus mistaking a challenge to the ideology as an attack on the self?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 12:58

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:42

Long term consequences are , for example, the physical effects of endogenous puberty. These are well evidenced me thinks.

Edited

Going through puberty is an entirely natural process.

Do you understand that it is not possible to go through an opposite sexed puberty?

You either go through your own, normal, natural puberty as per your own biological sex, or you don't go through puberty at all and never become a sexually mature adult.

Those are the only two options.

NonPlayerCharacter · 22/04/2024 12:56

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:53

Why do you people always think nobody can see through your dishonesty and weak attempts at sophistry.

ok the ad hominem attacks are coming back out, taking a pause for my mental wellbeing 🩷.

You don't know what an ad hominim is, either. I'm literally attacking the argument, or rather the lack of it. Your "points" are dishonest and weak attempts at sophistry. That's why they don't stand and that's why you're employing the exact same tactics to avoid answering this. Because once you reject the best evidence while claiming to want the best evidence, well...what else is there?

TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:55

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:51

“normal” and “healthy” are value judgements.
Again, let’s use the abortion analogy- we could say that carrying a fetus for 9 months and giving birth is a “normal” and “healthy” physiological result of getting pregnant . That doesn’t mean we should force all women to do it. We recognise for some women that doing so could cause severe physical and mental “injury” (to borrow words
from the abortion act). somehow we know this (although we don’t exactly have long term outcome control trials, using standardised measures of eg mental health, that demonstrate as such.).

Edited

An analogy is pointless.

In the case of blockers and GD growing up with a healthy body means not having drug induced obesity, osteoporosis, depression, fertility loss, stunted genitalia, uterine atrophy or elevated risk for testicular cancer.

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:53

NonPlayerCharacter · 22/04/2024 12:50

and the best available evidence

You're actively rejecting and denying the best available evidence, despite no actual refutation. Why do you people always think nobody can see through your dishonesty and weak attempts at sophistry?

Do you think your personal assertion is all it
takes to change a clear reality? Oh hang on...

Why do you people always think nobody can see through your dishonesty and weak attempts at sophistry.

ok the ad hominem attacks are coming back out, taking a pause for my mental wellbeing 🩷.

OP posts:
NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:51

“normal” and “healthy” are value judgements.
Again, let’s use the abortion analogy- we could say that carrying a fetus for 9 months and giving birth is a “normal” and “healthy” physiological result of getting pregnant . That doesn’t mean we should force all women to do it. We recognise for some women that doing so could cause severe physical and mental “injury” (to borrow words
from the abortion act). somehow we know this (although we don’t exactly have long term outcome control trials, using standardised measures of eg mental health, that demonstrate as such.).

OP posts:
NonPlayerCharacter · 22/04/2024 12:50

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:46

I don’t want them offered “without restriction”. I want them to be offered on the basis of careful assessment of individual need, clinical judgement and the best available evidence, as is the standard in all areas of healthcare.

I want this as I understand and care deeply about the harm that will be caused to trans people in this country through withdrawing access to hormonal medications.

and the best available evidence

You're actively rejecting and denying the best available evidence, despite no actual refutation. Why do you people always think nobody can see through your dishonesty and weak attempts at sophistry?

Do you think your personal assertion is all it
takes to change a clear reality? Oh hang on...

TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:47

TheKeatingFive · 22/04/2024 12:46

So normal physiological development then?

JINX!

TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:46

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:42

Long term consequences are , for example, the physical effects of endogenous puberty. These are well evidenced me thinks.

Edited

aka growing up with a healthy body?

TheKeatingFive · 22/04/2024 12:46

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:42

Long term consequences are , for example, the physical effects of endogenous puberty. These are well evidenced me thinks.

Edited

So normal physiological development then?

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:46

NonPlayerCharacter · 22/04/2024 12:39

No, the point is that you want them offered without "restriction", ie, without an appropriate level of evidence and research, and you don't care who is harmed by that, as evidenced (haha) by your dismissal, handwaving and oversimplification, as here, of all the reasons why that's dangerous.

I hope you really do just want to embarrass yourself because the alternative is so much worse.

I don’t want them offered “without restriction”. I want them to be offered on the basis of careful assessment of individual need, clinical judgement and the best available evidence, as is the standard in all areas of healthcare.

I want this as I understand and care deeply about the harm that will be caused to trans people in this country through withdrawing access to hormonal medications.

OP posts:
NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:42

TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:39

Again, you need to provide evidence of this before the NHS will prescribe on that basis.

Evidence based medicine requires evidence.

Long term consequences are , for example, the physical effects of endogenous puberty. These are well evidenced me thinks.

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:41

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:39

Abortion is always good value to money because unplanned/unwanted kids cost the government a fortune to house and educate, especially if they end up in the looked-after system

this isn’t the reason we offer abortion on the nhs 😱😱 and it would be horrific if it were.

Horrific is sterilising gay and autistic kids.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 12:41

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:39

Abortion is always good value to money because unplanned/unwanted kids cost the government a fortune to house and educate, especially if they end up in the looked-after system

this isn’t the reason we offer abortion on the nhs 😱😱 and it would be horrific if it were.

The point is this is the value for money argument. Not that it is the only argument.

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:39

TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:32

I’d need to see the non-anecdotal evidence before I agreed.

If transition was reclassified as body modification rather than medicine it wouldn’t need to be examined in this way. Just slap a warning on it, restrict it to adults and make it self funded.

The NHS requires value-for-money proof.

Abortion is always good value to money because unplanned/unwanted kids cost the government a fortune to house and educate, especially if they end up in the looked-after system.

Abortion is always good value to money because unplanned/unwanted kids cost the government a fortune to house and educate, especially if they end up in the looked-after system

this isn’t the reason we offer abortion on the nhs 😱😱 and it would be horrific if it were.

OP posts:
NonPlayerCharacter · 22/04/2024 12:39

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:32

Not offering them also has life-altering consequences. That is the point.

No, the point is that you want them offered without "restriction", ie, without an appropriate level of evidence and research, and you don't care who is harmed by that, as evidenced (haha) by your dismissal, handwaving and oversimplification, as here, of all the reasons why that's dangerous.

I hope you really do just want to embarrass yourself because the alternative is so much worse.

TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:39

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:32

Not offering them also has life-altering consequences. That is the point.

Again, you need to provide evidence of this before the NHS will prescribe on that basis.

Evidence based medicine requires evidence.

TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:38

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:30

*Precocious puberty and Gender Dysphoria are not a like-for-like comparison as triptorelin is actually licensed for use in precocious puberty, it’s off label for GD, hence Cass’ recommendation that it be used for GD as part of a clinical trial.

The point of delaying precocious puberty until the normal time is so that bone maturation becomes consistent with age*

I am well aware of this thank you.
that doesn’t change the point that we are without long term control trials that demonstrate outcomes of offering PBs for precocious puberty.

Are we? Do you have a source for that?

Obvs you can’t have a blind trial but do we really have no long term follow up?

A lot of kids with precocious puberty also have significant disabilities or disease (eg brain tumours) which may make data difficult to parse (eg is side effect X a result of the disease, the blocker or the chemo?) but most areas of paediatrics don’t lose track of patients the way GIDs do (most non-gender patients don’t change NHS number for starters).

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 12:33

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:32

Not offering them also has life-altering consequences. That is the point.

Such as?

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:32

NonPlayerCharacter · 22/04/2024 12:27

Just the business of objecting to proper evidence-based controls and research before giving life-altering substances to children and young people.

Not offering them also has life-altering consequences. That is the point.

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 22/04/2024 12:32

NameChangeCass · 22/04/2024 12:27

I don’t really trust them to provide adequate care tbh, but I think they are better than nothing. I am all for health services for trans people being improved, but this needs to involve improved access to hormonal medicines, not further restrictions.

I’d need to see the non-anecdotal evidence before I agreed.

If transition was reclassified as body modification rather than medicine it wouldn’t need to be examined in this way. Just slap a warning on it, restrict it to adults and make it self funded.

The NHS requires value-for-money proof.

Abortion is always good value to money because unplanned/unwanted kids cost the government a fortune to house and educate, especially if they end up in the looked-after system.