AIBU to think this became a political issue where children are just pawns?

I agree that the debate has become so divisive now. It’s a really complex issue and both sides have some really valid points and both sides are guilty of entering the debate with unnecessary aggression.

I am a feminist and object to the current situation with people born male, with male genitalia, male skewed hormones, higher rates of violent and sexually violent behaviours and stronger bodies, being allowed into women only spaces and sports.

I also care about people’s right to be fully accepted and respected no matter what their sex/gender/identity or any other personal attribute.

I also know that the various complex factors that make up your sex/gender are on continuum and fluctuate. With the exception of chromosomes (mostly) of course. And that there have always been people that don’t fit the binary model, because it isn’t binary really. We’ve just made it so.

I also can see that earlier treatment, if you have definitely been assigned the wrong gender/sex is better than leaving it longer and that you can’t give proper informed consent until you are fully competent. So a massive clinical dilemma.

Also that adolescence is naturally a period where we try different identities to see what fits, so it’s very hard to unpick what is that process and what is genuinely a wrongly assigned gender and the risk of significant harm if that is wrongly judged.

I like the idea of treating people as individuals without making any pre judged assumptions. My nieces and their friends are all different in terms of sexuality, gender identity and some identify differently to their assigned sex. They all seem to treat each other very respectfully and are really accepting and celebratory of difference. I really like all that.

But I also like the sense of belonging I get from being with other women who have had similar experiences to me because we are women. We have had similar experiences of discrimination, health etc. I like women only spaces as there is more space to express myself than if men are present. I identify as a woman and don’t want to be relabelled as a cis woman.

And that’s just the tip of this very complex, thorny issue to which there is not an easy and quick answer. It’s a bloody mess and I don’t think anyone has the answers.

The previous binary status quo leaves those non binary or mis- gendered people with a sense of being ‘othered’ and not accepted. I don’t like that.

Self identification and calling trans women, women leaves me feeling invalidated in my identity as a woman, puts women at risk and puts us in situations where we are once again facing a battle to matter as much as men, even if said ‘men’ identify as women.

Aaargh!!!

"But if the focus just continuously stays on gender ideology which absolutely does happen on these threads alienating vast numbers the hugely important issue of MH provision just gets side stepped or completely forgotten."

This is a thread about the Cass Review - a report about gender ideology and how it has affected vulnerable children.

That is the focus of the thread. You can start your own thread about children's mental health support, not berate women here for discussing the topic of the thread.

Gender distressed children have been deliberately denied the following:

-evidence based Medicine
-best clinical practice
-child safeguarding
-rigorous and regular data reviews

All for ideological reasons. Of course we should discuss how such a pernicious ideology took hold amongst healthcare professionals, and how it's perpetuated throughout society. How can we be confident that mental health services aren't also going to be poisoned in the same way?

Everytime women raised the issue of how children were diagnosed and treated they were shouted down for being bigots and wanting trans kids to commit suicide. They have been on the receiving end of threats to themselves and their livelihoods and that is not an exaggeration unfortunately. I don’t think many people understand how appallingly trans activist have behaved, the calls for violence against women are routinely ignored by everyone.

Women have been yelling loudly about this for a while they will be across the political spectrum. Many women leading on this have been primarily from the left and good chunk of right wing women went argh what the fuck is going on. Both are concerned about sex based rights and kids being damaged.

The problem really is that we are in a situation where our actual national health service treated children with protocols which are risky and highly controversial when the science isn’t settled. How did that happen. How did clinical staff decide to ignore co-morbidities and just decide to affirm gender and start children on Pb with no hard clinical evidence of the impact on those kids. That to me is extremely political. How did a small group manage to infect our institutions to the extent that children were basically being used as guinea pigs and few people within those institutions said anything.

We should be asking some very hard questions about how people who were telling the truth were silenced either through disciplinary procedures, social disapproval, sackings etc. When did we become a society that is so scared of discussing the truth and looking at evidence. GIDS clinical staff who did whistleblow did it YEARS ago, this has been going on for YEARS.

The WPATH files actually shocked me, they fucking knew exactly what they were doing.

I don't think you can separate the two things.

This is it. It’s like being asked to discuss the price of fish. Without referring to the fishing industry or mentioning the sea.

I think Stormy may be getting confused when she/ he talks about ‘ideology’- as if there is ‘ideology’ on both sides with regards to this issue.
In my opinion one side is about ideology (eg: affirmative medical pathways will ‘cure’ children with gender distress, kids are what they say they are) and the other isn’t (let's provide holistic assessment and treatment and ensure distressed children are not rushed into a potentially damaging and irreversible medical pathway).

"People have been campaigning for them to get that support,. They could never get it if they were funnelled out of MH services and into GIDs. Which they were being. We were not campaigning from an ideological position, but from one that had at its heart the basic principles of health care and an evidence base."

"One of the major findings of Cass is that the majority of these gender distressed children have other mental health comorbidities which simply aren't being addressed. The NHS doesn't have the capacity to properly assess and treat them for their autism, or their ADHD, or their history of sexual abuse, so the moment they suggest they might be trans they are just shunted onto a gender identity clinic waiting list and their other issues are left unaddressed.

How many of these children could have been spared from further harm if their HCPs had said, "You're not a boy, you're a girl with autism and we're going to help you navigate that"

Thank you.👏👏

To return to OP’s question. I don’t think this has been enough of a political issue at all frankly. Parties of all colours have completely ignored the appalling state of children’s care. It was the NHS who commissioned the report independently and our disgraceful self serving politicians have largely sidestepped all accountability. Barring a very brave few.

I don't think you can separate the two things.

One of the major findings of Cass is that the majority of these gender distressed children have other mental health comorbidities which simply aren't being addressed. The NHS doesn't have the capacity to properly assess and treat them for their autism, or their ADHD, or their history of sexual abuse, so the moment they suggest they might be trans they are just shunted onto a gender identity clinic waiting list and their other issues are left unaddressed.

How many of these children could have been spared from further harm if their HCPs had said, "You're not a boy, you're a girl with autism and we're going to help you navigate that"?

You can't be surprised that people want to talk about a report that only came out yesterday, though?

I’m angry at the focus and discussion being taken up with ideology at this time.

Aren't we bloody all. It really shouldn't have needed the Cass report to get changes or see obviously problems or the huge push to even get that done.

Unfortunately groups and individual who pushed to ignore the other mental health issue thees kid had are still out there and may well target the new services being set up.

Personally with an lesbian ASD teen girl all this gender pushing has been a constant background worry that well meaning professionals or friends will convivence her gender was an issue for her and cause her untold long term harm - finger crossed we do seem to have avoided that.

But if the focus just continuously stays on gender ideology which absolutely does happen on these threads alienating vast numbers the hugely important issue of MH provision just gets side stepped or completely forgotten.

I don't think you understand just how many powerful people - often males - still are holding strong to their unscientific ideological beliefs that children's distress should be medicalised and psychological support vetoed. It's not possible to focus on quality mental health provision without acknowledging that the dire state of services is not just about the quantity, it's also about what they do with the resources they do have. If we do not discuss this, the actively damaging treatments will continue and parents will continue to be mislead by being lied to about the suicide stats etc. Critiquing harmful gender ideology is an essential part of improving mental health provision. More is not more if that more is used to do more of what is actively harmful.

cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

Here is the actual Cass Review for anyone who wants to read it for themselves.

Is it that you just want to talk about mental health services for children and you don't want to talk about children who have been told they are trans because you feel that the trans issue is clouding other things?

I'm sorry I'm really struggling to understand what you are aiming for here. Have you actually read the Cass report?

That’s not true Stormy. I think you are missing the point. I agree that much more financial resource needs to go into MH care for young people in general (including those with gender distress) but due diligence is required to uphold safeguarding requirements.

"I’m angry at the focus and discussion being taken up with ideology at this time.

There have been next to no MH services to be funnelled out of for quite some time and I think discussion about this has been overtaken by ideology. It’s now time to move forward and focus on what needs to be done going forward.

Highlighting the dire state of services this government has wilfully run into the ground and turned a blind eye to is a start. It has had a big part to play in what has happened and is at the centre of putting it right."

Which ideology do you mean @St0rmyDay555, trans ideology?

Because if so women have been saying this for years and getting death and rape threats for it.

So are we allowed to talk or not? What exactly are you objecting to us doing? We all know that mental health services for children are poorly funded and poorly managed.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Not really

“So far, I can only find comments which are very divisive. It's either the feeling that it's an attack of the transgender community or the conservatives celebrating it as their proof that the wokism should be over.”

The above is still the focus when it should be mental health provision and the dire state of services. Both played a massive part in leading to this and it needs to be the focus moving forward as all young people struggling with severe MH need help now, not debate.

@St0rmyDay555 Not sure why you are hijacking the thread and making it about individuals and accusing women of hero worshipping when the content of the report are about children with autism and mental health issues who are being given experimental treatments and life changing surgeries that will render them sterilised and sick.

If you don't like JKR that's your business but not sure why you need to get annoyed with women talking about this by pretending that they are talking about something else entirely and then saying "WHY AREN'T YOU TALKING ABOUT THE CHILDREN"
But we are.

I hope they are vindicated too. I was one of those who couldn’t really understand the problem with child transition until I looked a little deeper into it and realised I was totally wrong. Reading the Cass report yesterday just made me feel incredibly sad about how institutions who are supposed to care for children stuck their fingers in their ears and will potentially continue to do so without a legal framework to allow for open discussion, research and consultation on policy.

"So far, I can only find comments which are very divisive. It's either the feeling that it's an attack of the transgender community or the conservatives celebrating it as their proof that the wokism should be over."

Being pro child safeguarding is not anti trans and if it is then what does that tell you?

I’m angry at the focus and discussion being taken up with ideology at this time.

There have been next to no MH services to be funnelled out of for quite some time and I think discussion about this has been overtaken by ideology. It’s now time to move forward and focus on what needs to be done going forward.

Highlighting the dire state of services this government has wilfully run into the ground and turned a blind eye to is a start. It has had a big part to play in what has happened and is at the centre of putting it right.

I agree

Masses of people have been "looking at the real issue" and been hounded for it

Plus, people like me who don't dare voice our concerns openly

@St0rmyDay555 I'm sorry for what you are going through with your child. Children's mental health services (and adult) are awful and do need a complete overhaul. But the answer isn't to plug our ears about the harms of gender ideology and stifle debate. If you genuinely don't know what a TRA is, as you asserted earlier, it would suggest that you don't have a good understanding of gender ideology and the harms that it causes to vulnerable children.

It is possible to care about mental health support and also about the harm that gender ideology does, not least because they are hugely interlinked. I don't understand why someone with a poor understanding of gender ideology would be so insistent that the rest of us stop talking about it.

I hope they will now be vindicated.

I would hope so too, but I don't feel very confident that this will happen, because as we've seen here and elsewhere, opposing this is characterised as just being mean with the only possible motive being unthinking bigotry and a will to see children die. This has become so embedded in people's minds now that it's going to be very hard to remove.