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Honour-based crime up 62%

187 replies

Papyrophile · 10/04/2024 21:02

According to the Family Law Centre, honour-based crime in the UK went up 62% from 2020-2022. For explanation, honour-based crime and abuse mostly affects women from SE Asian or Middle Eastern backgrounds where the cultural traditions are very strongly patriarchal, arranged marriages are routine and women are regarded as less important/valuable than men.

As a feminist, this is extraordinarily distasteful to me but I am not affected at all by it. How do other people see the situation?

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Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 21:37

It is at this point I confess that I am rubbish at stats, and particularly at choosing/setting parameters. Please feel free to try to define the definitions.

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Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 21:32

If your statistics are right @NerdWhoEatsMedlar , that is even worse than I feared.

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NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 11/04/2024 21:12

Every year about 110 women are killed by men.
Only 8% are killed by a stranger.
6.5% of the population is Muslim.
About 13% of murdered women fall under the honour killing label.

It is a form of domestic violence.
If we keep working on open communication and reporting that number will normalise. It wasn't that long ago that the white on white figures were similar.

Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 21:11

I don't disagree @Brefugee, but do please read the discussion between the time it was posted yesterday, and do stop weighing in having NOT read the thread. Your opinion is most welcome, but moderation is important! The conversation has moved on.

Read it through, this is already a discussion where posters have engaged attentively and no one has brought prejudice or politics. No one has been critical, only constructive and informative. It would be lovely to keep it moderate and possibly useful to better social debate and policy.

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Brefugee · 11/04/2024 21:05

Papyrophile · 10/04/2024 21:02

According to the Family Law Centre, honour-based crime in the UK went up 62% from 2020-2022. For explanation, honour-based crime and abuse mostly affects women from SE Asian or Middle Eastern backgrounds where the cultural traditions are very strongly patriarchal, arranged marriages are routine and women are regarded as less important/valuable than men.

As a feminist, this is extraordinarily distasteful to me but I am not affected at all by it. How do other people see the situation?

we need to stop using that term. It isn't about "honour" it is mostly about controlling and abusing women.

Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 21:04

I'm very sorry to have judged and for the personal hurt I may have put on you @Pireck, between our two posts. That dimension really had never occcurred to me.

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Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 20:57

Lots of migrants, from all around the world, many targeting the EU's wealthiest countries, for entirely rational reasons. Countries aiming for EU levels of prosperity and success, like Poland and Hungary, just shunt them forward to better/more developed economies better able and resourced to "integrate" incomers.

In the very (very) long term, I think a population shift will be worthwhile for the UK and most of the northern EU where reproductive rates are below replacement level and the climate change factors are unpredictable, but the social/cultural back stories that will come along behind them dont scream that the impetus is towards liberal social democracy.

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Pireck · 11/04/2024 20:47

Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 20:16

Interesting thought @Pireck.

I get refugee men coming from repressive regimes to the EU and UK, if they are gay or belong to a persecuted minority religious group. But economic migrants surely just want to work and earn money, I am told. At when do the young men begin to believe that their 'male-ness' entitles them to grope every female they fancy during public festivities, because women are only on earth for men to direct and use. I am thinking about the New Year's Eve celebration in Germany, when there were multiple rapes and assaults.

The reality is actually quite sad because many of the men who come over are from backgrounds where they can't afford to support a wife in their home country, but can afford to escape and drop it all for a chance at something different here. However, no women in the UK or other developed countries are interested because they all have something called rights. So they live pretty miserable lives tbh. It's not easy or maybe not even possible to reform someone's mind once they've been brought up with much more brutal and sickening attitudes towards women.

Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 20:16

Interesting thought @Pireck.

I get refugee men coming from repressive regimes to the EU and UK, if they are gay or belong to a persecuted minority religious group. But economic migrants surely just want to work and earn money, I am told. At when do the young men begin to believe that their 'male-ness' entitles them to grope every female they fancy during public festivities, because women are only on earth for men to direct and use. I am thinking about the New Year's Eve celebration in Germany, when there were multiple rapes and assaults.

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Pireck · 11/04/2024 18:14

Developed country imports third world men and is shocked when they behave in a third world manner. [shocked pikachu face]

Isitsummersomewhere · 11/04/2024 17:52

HoneyButterPopcorn · 11/04/2024 16:42

I have family in a part of the world not exactly known for its enlightened (or even humane) treatment of women and girls.

However whenever I see ‘man originally from XX country murders daughter for wearing makeup /having boyfriend/breathing…’ I can bet my boots the man will most likely come from/originate from a certain community/area. Even in that country the reputation of this community that of ‘backward yokels’ (for want of a better description).

I assume that most child murder in the U.K. by ‘natives’ are in nature covering sexual/physical abuse or plain old evil ‘punishments’ (or of course family jealousy). Occasionally religious beatings/punishments.

I think this is a really good point.

The behaviour of these individuals is considered reprehensible in their own country, but people/ police/ authorities just lump ‘foreigners’ into one pile and think ‘that’s how they do things’

i have relatives who come from a country where men can legally have four wives, but none of my relatives do and it’s massively looked down on. It’s something ‘backward yokels’ do. One distant relative attempted it ( because he was too lazy to get divorced) and his female relatives in particular hit the roof! He was basically bullied into getting a divorce.

It’s like comparing all white people to those who turn up to a Tommy Robinson ( Yaxley-Lennon) March

hagchic · 11/04/2024 17:32

I'd call it Cultural Misogyny

peakygold · 11/04/2024 17:17

I imagine because the UK borders are seemingly open to all, the crime statistics must also rise.

Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 17:14

Thanks, that's what I assumed it was, and yes, completely abhorrent and vengeful.

The whole concept of protecting family "honour" seems a bit 12th century to me. Obviously there is reputation to consider/uphold, but it seems barbaric to believe that misdemeanours should be punishable by death -- even within a community that prizes cultural tradition. And surely, a reputation for violent abuse, even murder, is not something that reflects well on the perpetrator?

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viques · 11/04/2024 17:05

Agreed, add to that FGM. Ask why is it that UK born girls are still being cut. The answer is that the communities they belong to know that the penalties for mutilating their daughters are minimal. And often the FGM is taking place in the UK, it is no longer always the case that girls are taken abroad for special holidays to be cut.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 11/04/2024 16:56

Femicide - murder of women/girls because they are women/girls. I feel it’s male on female crimes.

‘Honour’ because they are believed to have transgressed in some way, causing disgrace to the family, therefore as ‘your belonging’ you feel you have the right to murder them (can be male or female victims or murderers). Although how can there be any honour in murdering your child, I’ll never know.

Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 16:52

@Deipara In particular, does femicide refer specifically to victims of family "honour" killings?

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Papyrophile · 11/04/2024 16:48

A few posters have used the word 'femicide'. Interested to understand the thinking behind that preference, if someone would like to elaborate.

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HoneyButterPopcorn · 11/04/2024 16:42

I have family in a part of the world not exactly known for its enlightened (or even humane) treatment of women and girls.

However whenever I see ‘man originally from XX country murders daughter for wearing makeup /having boyfriend/breathing…’ I can bet my boots the man will most likely come from/originate from a certain community/area. Even in that country the reputation of this community that of ‘backward yokels’ (for want of a better description).

I assume that most child murder in the U.K. by ‘natives’ are in nature covering sexual/physical abuse or plain old evil ‘punishments’ (or of course family jealousy). Occasionally religious beatings/punishments.

JamSandle · 11/04/2024 16:29

Police are scared to touch this sort of crime because people claim its cultural.

Deipara · 11/04/2024 16:27

I prefer the term femicide.

jannier · 11/04/2024 16:20

AmaryllisChorus · 11/04/2024 12:03

Coercive control exists as a crime. It is this, fundamentally. I don't think it needs another name which alludes to it being a problem specific to a given subsection of society.

People - usually men - who attack women for daring to act autonomously come from all walks of life - all religions, all races and classes. I worry that giving it a special name, even if that name doesn't carry the repulsive positive connotation of 'honour', others it.

It's useful to note if there's a rise in a given crime within a certain sector of society, but to rebrand that crime as something that only exists within that community is a lie.

There are sub divisions of most acts of abuse and explained earlier....so child abuse included neglect, emotional, physical, sexual, domestic violence, faith based etc...you need to know it's variations to be alert to it you need to know the individual risk factors. We don't as professionals lump it as abuse because it allows things to be overlooked.
We know there are risk factors for women and girls that make some types of abuse more prevalent nobody is saying that a man of any race or religion cannot kill a woman because he thinks his honour is at stake but that is not honour based killing which is about the beliefs of the wider family unit and social pressures in the same way as there is more risk of fgm in certain cultures but I'm sure some sick men have mutilated women without it being classed as fgm ....if we insist on ignoring things for fear of being racist women will suffer.....in honour based abuse as with fgm women are part of the problem.

takemeawayagain · 11/04/2024 16:18

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 11/04/2024 12:12

I don't have the figures to hand but given how much violence against women and children is committed by white British men it would be very hypocritical to single out other ethnicities, unless there was clear evidence they commit significantly more offences as to justify it.

And by evidence I mean actual statistical evidence and not just examples of what the media reports. As referenced above Rochdale, Rotherham, Oxford are often used to infere that Asian / Muslim men are more likely to be abusers. Yet rarely do we see people using Glasgow, Wolverhampton / Walsall, or the international British paedophile ring to suggest the same of white British people.

You're missing the point completely, the point isn't that Asian men commit more crimes than white men. There are many more white men in this country and many more crimes by white men. Nowhere has anyone said that Asian men are more likely to be abusers, you are making that up completely.

The point made is that the police are more likely to look the other way when culturally sensitive crimes occur for fear of being accused of being racist. This puts women and girls especially those from other cultures at more risk because the police are less inclined to get involved as evidenced by what happened in Rochdale/Rotherham etc.

jannier · 11/04/2024 16:05

kitsuneghost · 11/04/2024 14:35

We need to stop calling it honour based crime
There is no honour in it whatsoever
misogynistic scum based crime??

Of course there is no honour in it that's not what it's saying....the excuse used in these acts is the protection of a families honour hence the name.

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