To wish I’d never had children?

You say you don't feel depressed but what about all the good moments with children like when they say/do something new or funny? Doesn't that make the hard bits worth it?

I think our posts are actually agreeing? That response from me was not in answer me to your posts.

I disagree that empathy and narcissism are the same thing.

Possibly I can see your point where it is effectively phrased as “ I’m miserable because I have have greater empathetic capacities than others.”

Except that isn't the case because I rarely feel miserable.

This is linked to the view from many others on this thread about the OP: "You sound depressed". Just because someone feels life is shit or life is generally shit it doesn't necessarily mean that person is depressed or miserable.

Wow there was quite a bit of mental casuistry going on there really.

Possibly I can see your point where it is effectively phrased as “ I’m miserable because I have have greater empathetic capacities than others.”

But if someone is actually exercising empathy I really can’t see that calling that narcissistic is fair.

Thus I don’t agree narcissism and empathy are two sides of the same coin at all. It might, however, be narcissistic to claim you have super powers of empathy. But you’ve elided several steps of logic in the way you have stated it.

There is more than a similarity. As the meme goes 'it's the same picture'. The whole concept of 'empathy' is a complete crock and I wish more people realised that. I could go on and on about it, I won't because my thoughts on the matter would fill a long book, but the way that 'empathy' has become currency is deeply sinister and at worst a gift to people who have ill intent, at best a way for people to misguidedly pat themselves on the back.

With respect, you don’t get to tell me what I feel and I very much disagree that there’s a similarity between empathy and narcissism.

I don't think you should be proud of being 'empathetic'. People who pride themselves on empathy often are a) miserable and b) narcissistic! People talk about narcissism and empathy as polar opposites, but I believe then to be two sides of the same coin. The belief that you have some special insight into the sufferings of the world and can feel others' pain is actually deeply arrogant, when you really think about it. Far better to detach and to sort your own house out before you worry about anyone else.

This essay by Ian Leslie (liberal left-ish thinker) is absolutely fascinating and draws together research which shows a link between privilege and/or conservatism and being happy.

"Why does being left wing make you unhappy?"

I can understand where the OP is coming from. It is natural to fear for the future of your children, wondering what is in store for them.

You can only bring them up to the best of your ability, teaching them as much as you can, and hoping they do well at school, learn enough to show future employers their brains have the capacity to absorb knowledge and remember and apply it. That is all you can do: the rest is up to them.

If your childhood was full of misery, why have children at all? Is it that someone had control over you all your life and you want that same control? Is it that you think you can do a better job than your parents did?

A decade ago there were hundreds of teen pregnancies, and on TV programmes like 'Teen Mum' and the reasons they had for having babies and keeping them was almost always the desire to 'start a family' or 'have something of my own'.

They are not good enough reasons to bring life into the world.

Our desire to have children should be when we have a settled life and enough income to give them a future. Unfortunately, too many women have children first, then look around for a lifestyle they want, and that is the wrong way round. The state of the world and the cost of living means that there has to be two wage packets coming into the home to pay for the necessities of life - bed and board, and parents have to forfeit bringing up their own children to maintain that. It means that many children are being brought up in groups by strangers, and once you have no control over how your children are nurtured, then there are problems. Is the extra income worth giving up your children's care to someone else? When mothers worked part time to supplement income, they were usually at home with the children at least half the day.

Teenagers are more in need of family to come home to after school, yet they are regarded as old enough to be on their own, even look after the younger ones, but it is these teenagers who long for family life and have children hoping they can do that. They cannot, because they have no experience of family life when both parents work. If they didn't when the children are young, they certainly do when they are teenagers, and the whole cycle begins again.

I do wonder whether people generally have unrealistic expectations now ( fuelled by instagram, etc.)

I think some people always have had, such as “Work hard at school and you’re set for life” or “You can achieve anything if you put your mind to it”. It’s all bollocks.

Zeborah · 10/04/2024 21:10
You need to be able to see and capture the happy, joyful moments in life, regardless of how fleeting. There’s no such thing as happy ever after.”

I do wonder whether people generally have unrealistic expectations now ( fuelled by instagram, etc.)

@Strawberriesandpears But do you not enjoy things in the day to day? Relationships, leisure time?
I really enjoyed school apart from a couple of miserable teenage years, I LOVED Uni, I’ve done a few different jobs and left when I stopped enjoying them to look for something else. Really like my current job and hope it stays that way but if it doesn’t, I’ll move.
I really like spending time with my family, I make plans with friends, I have a hobby that I love… I don’t think my life is all that special and I’ve had my fair share of difficulties along the way but I am still so glad to be living it.

I agree with you OP. I won't be subjecting a child to life. It's cruel and relentless. Basically you are born, go to school, loads of exam stress maybe with a side order of bullying thrown in, college or university (with more stress), then trying to find a job. Then getting up early and going there for 40 odd years, retirement (if you are lucky), perhaps a few decent years, then old age, perhaps in an old people's home, loss of dignity, death then being burried or cremated. And that's if you can avoid horrors like serious accidents and cancer along the way. I would NEVER have signed up to being born.

Exactly this. Myself and DH are mid-40s, no kids, own home (which is nearly paid for!), plenty of disposable income for holidays and hobbies and still in great shape - physically and mentally - to enjoy them.

We would not switch places with our 20-something nieces and nephews for all the tea in China!

@Hartley99 I lost my Mum to cancer as a child and was emotionally abused by my stepmum. So not a million miles away from the little boy on your street.

I am (mostly) content, I have a good life. I wish my mum hadn’t died and I still feel sad about it at times but I am glad to be here and grateful to be living in this beautiful world.

@MsLuxLisbon I know your post wasn’t directed at me, but the post today by @Hartley99 resonated so I’d like to comment.

I can’t detach (nor do I want to) from some of the horrible things I’ve witnessed or am aware of e.g people needlessly dying of cancer because they’ve been misdiagnosed, children dying in wars, my narcissistic mother always putting her needs above her children’s with disastrous consequences - because I feel it’s part of what makes me human. Or maybe it's my personality and being empathetic. Life isn’t always fair, and that’s partly why, in general, life is shit.

One of the talents you lack is seeing the good in things and also detatching yourself from others' troubles Why are you still dwelling on the troubles of people in your street? I don't think about sad stories like that, I do have to admit. It's part of life but if it isn't happening to me or to someone close to me I don't really care if I'm honest.

@NCprivatelife has it right- I don’t consider fame or being a pro athlete the pinnacle of a good life at all! I hope my DC become kind , considerate people who contribute to their community and are comfortable with who they are.
Do consider getting some help OP. Not everyone feels as helpless and pessimistic as you do. We went to a farm that see some lambs yesterday and it made us all so happy- maybe we’re easily pleased but i think it’s important to find joy in simple things. I am not rich , famous, in a relationship or very successful! I am happy and contented and feel lucky to have the pretty ordinary life I have.

I agree. And think how many people find life so ghastly that they take overdoses or jump off a bridge! My dad is buried next to a young man who killed himself, and so are my grandparents.

I’m always amazed by people who think life’s pretty great. If I was being unkind, I’d say they’re shallow and insensitive. Then again, maybe they’re just braver and more positive than I am. To me, it’s always seemed obvious that life’s basically horrible with good bits, rather than basically good with bad bits. Ralph Waldo Emerson said “most people live lives of quiet desperation,” which I’ve always thought is true.

I have seen so much horror in my own small life that it takes my breath away. Just take the road I grew up in. The boy who lived opposite lost his mum to cancer when he was seven and was then horribly bullied by his new stepmum. The pretty girl at the end of my road was thrown through the windscreen of a car when she was 17 and spent the rest of her life hideously scarred and trapped in a wheelchair. The man two doors down sank into deep depression and drank himself to death, leaving behind a young wife and 10-year-old son. I could go on. And that’s just one tiny street in one small island. Truth is, the sorts of tragedies I have listed don’t bother a lot of people. They are unmoved by the suffering of others. Their view of life hinges entirely on their own experiences. So long as their life is good, they think life generally is good.

But it isn’t just the tragedies. So much of the daily grind is miserable. Most jobs are shit and unfulfilling, and most relationships are hard and far from ideal. Let’s be honest, none of our dreams come true. (I always wanted to be an actor, artist or writer, but had no talent, so settled for a crap office job instead.) And on top of all that, we’ve got the nightmare of old age and death waiting at the end. I have seen death several times, and each time it was horrifying. My sweet, gentle grandmother died of a brain haemorrhage when I was 19. That sight has haunted me ever since. That’s our reward for the 80 year struggle.

Because it seems completely undoable without a major input of cash from somewhere like an inheritance. I have nothing to leave my daughter who is already 30. Houses anywhere near where she works are 200 thou+. She earns about 28K. She's have to put away about half her salary for three years just to pay the deposit.

Squashedbyarock · 09/04/2024 08:21

I cannot see in your post any reason for why you feel like this. Why do you regret having your children? Is it the cost of living, that every penny you have is hardly enough to cover your cost of living, which has increased phenomenally since covid, partly because banks are making up what they lost in 2009, and supermarkets are taking advantage while we are expecting prices to rise, and the cost of fuel, travel, items for school?

It is very dispiriting to work hard and never have enough to cover the costs of bringing up children. You could get practical help for that.

Those who are in full time work, yet cannot afford to cover the rent, fuel, energy, food, and all the necessaries do feel as though they are just slaves, without being able to save for their family's future, and prospects look dim

Think of the years of slavery: slaves worked all day for bed and board only. If in this 21st century that is all someone in full employment can do with their pay packet, then albeit the house might be better than a wood shack, many people are living like slaves, without being able to save, and that makes many mothers feel they are failing their family, no matter how hard they work.

That is very real, and if it causes depression, it is no wonder.

I think you sound depressed OP.

Being depressed doesn’t mean there is nothing wrong in the world but you nonetheless still feel bad regardless; it means that you are struggling with the weight of what absolutely is wrong in the world. When you are not depressed you find ways to process that and move on, or ways of focusing in on things that give you meaning and hope amongst the darker aspects.

It sounds as though your dc are healthily happy. Try to use that as your beacon of meaningfulness. Every day you can keep them feeling that way ( broadly speaking!) is day with meaningful existence in it for you. Please do seek help as they may be able to make this process so much easier.

You’re depressed, please get help. For your sake and your children’s sake.

Hair appointments and Range Rovers? Do you think these are the gateways to happiness? 😁

I won't be giving you a list of all the reasons I could justify being miserable. Because all that stuff is secondary to the fact that I'm a resilient optimist who has meaningful connections with the people who I love, an appreciation for a world that is bigger than we are and who is grateful for the things that we do have.

Now that won't stop some people resigning me to the rank of 'happy but dim' because building a narrative that you have been driven to hopelessness because you operate closer to the truth of things through your intelligence and mental acuity protects a fragile ego and, I expect, makes for a reasonable consolation prize for enduring your unending pessimism but my sunny outlook is not built on hair appointments and a range rover 😁

Wow that's a bit patronising! Especially to the childhood sexual abuse survivors on this thread who have overcome and now find pleasure in life.

I can see the death and destruction around the world, and poverty and strife on my own doorstep - but it doesn't stop me experiencing all the emotions and experiences life has to offer.

There is no good without the bad.