No phone for secondary school

My comment was specifically in response to the poster who said that children can’t be expected to play outside after 12,

Oh, completely fair enough then. I might've misunderstood. I completely agree with that. They can and they should.

You might find it odd from someone that has given their kid a smartphone, but I'm a firm believer in kids being kids (in age appropriate ways).

For us with our eldest son it was nothing to do with socialising, and only to do with logistics - he had a phone for the first time when he went to secondary school because we needed to be able to contact him if we were going to be late picking him up or if there was any sort of issue from his end (unexpected rugby match or something). We live 8 miles from his school, it’s in the countryside and there is no school bus. He is now in the 2nd year there (yr 8) and still has no social media, no games, no access to YouTube or TikTok etc. The school rules are that children cannot have phones turned on or even in sight at all at school until the end of the day when all the parents are collecting, and then the ones whose parents aren’t there can turn phones on by the steps to the main school building, to contact their parents. They all abide by this rule (it’s a pretty strict school), and so there aren’t any problems with phones at school. A nice bonus is that DS is now able to contact his school friends by phone or text and arrange to meet up as hardly any of them live near each other. He is also able to keep in touch with primary school friends who went to different schools. He also enjoys audible on it at home.

We are pretty strict about phone use and rules at home too, but it works well for us all at the moment, in comparison to lots of children we know who seem superglued to their phones and are obsessed with them and have social
media at an inappropriately young age. dS2 is 10 and all of his school friends (older and younger) have phones already. I have told him that if he wants to arrange to meet up with friends in the holidays then I will message the friends mums, and that works absolutely fine still. We don’t live in a village so he can’t just call round to friends houses. He would love to have his own phone but for now we are saying ‘no’ as he really doesn’t need one. When he does get one eventually, it will be basic and no social
media the same as his brother’s phone. Our teenage niece is completely consumed by her obsession with social media, and it has prompted several frank conversations with our sons about the idea of them not having SM until they are 18 and how by staying off it, they may decide never to have it.

so to answer your original question - yes for us a phone is necessary at secondary age, but not as a default, only in response to our specific circumstances and I think it’s a great shame when children have phones too young.

My girls, 14 & 16 have to travel over an hour by bus to get yo school at 7.30 in the morning. I don't necessarily think they need a £££ phone but we have an app where I can track their location which as well as being beneficial to know they got to school ok means when they are out and about with friends I can check where they are. God forbid they were ever lost or worse abducted at least I would be able check their last known location. So a basic phone isn't good enough for that as I need the app and for them to have data for it to work. So from that perspective I say YABU. They don't all just have a smartphone for the street cred.

We live in a differant world to the one we grew up in pre-tech. Yeah, kids should have smartphones, it's a sign of the times. What you allow them to put on thier smartphones is up to you.

My child (year 7) has a smart phone. She is not allowed social media (until the correct legal age) but does use WhatsApp. WhatsApp groups are how friends communicate these days, without a smart phone they would be totally out of touch with others. My daughter rarely replies to people, but she does read what her friends send. Also as she catches a train to school she uses the app to see if it is running/cancelled or delayed. She checks her bank account so she has control of her pocket money and learn the value of money & I can track her location so if she ignores her phone I still know where she is. They are all bed, are education and unfortunately a child without one will not last long in secondary. Fact of modern life I’m afraid

My comment was specifically in response to the poster who said that children can’t be expected to play outside after 12, and must therefore stare at a smart phone screen before school instead. It’s great your DD is still doing all that. Unfortunately most children are getting much more screen time than outdoor time these days.

I understand that we are all more worried about safety these days, and I will definitely want a way to contact my kids, and for my kids to arrange meet ups independently. But this can be done by text and calling on a dumb phone. Smart phones are the issue, not phones in general.

Ds didn’t have a smartphone until he was about 14. He just wasn’t interested in them. He did, however, have a basic Nokia phone as he caught a designated school bus which was horrendously unreliable and no option for public buses back home on the many occasions it didn’t arrive (3 mile walk down a national speed limit country lane with no pavements which I wasn’t happy with him doing in the winter when it was pretty much dark). It was purely so as he could send me a text up pick up if he was stranded. He’s 18 now and still isn’t that bothered about having the “best” phone and doesn’t do social media at all, so I guess I’m lucky in that respect.

It is awful. They are doing that, and furthermore, they are showing the videos to other kids whose internet access is restricted. Average age for first viewing porn is 12 years old now. They’re also sending round the most horrific, traumatising videos of violence like torture, terrorism, decapitation etc.

Tweens and young teens are very curious and don’t have the brain development to navigate these things. It doesn’t mean they can never learn to use a smart phone. Just when they are older and more mature and capable of navigating the dangers around it, comparable to driving a car or drinking alcohol, as PPs have pointed out.

I got my DD a phone for her 10th birthday all her friends already had one. I did it so we could both practice how this was going to work longer term. She went to a village school with only one class per year and all the parents know each other so we all kind of went through it together. She knew that I would regularly check her phone and this was also happening with others in the class. It was easy to do it in this protective environment. Flash forward to her being in a large secondary and the boundaries have already been set. She uses her phone quite a bit, we live rurally and she needs to get a public bus too and from school. Sometimes there are after school clubs and sometimes not, but if she does a sports club she needs collecting as the bus does not run to ours at that time. They also have an app for their timetable, homework and assessment results. She is also home alone for 30minutes one day a week, and we do not have a landline. I feel we have the balance right, and it isn’t used during school. Everything has time limits and she isn’t allowed to just waste time on it when she could be doing something else.

*They should be. At school, they can kick a ball, walk around or at least chat to each other. Outside of school they can walk in the woods, climb, explore, play in the river or the snow, ride bikes or skateboards…

The more we talk about this issue, the more parents will be encouraged that not “everyone else is doing it” and there is another way.*

DD and her friends do all that. When the bus isn't an abject failure, they actually get to school really early so they hang out in the library browsing books/magazines/chatting or in the cafeteria chatting,sometimes having a pastry. Playtime/Lunchtime they walk around ,chat,joke,giggle. Some days they do sporty after school clubs.

Not a lot of time to go out after school, especially with homework and not living particularly close, but they meet up a lot in half terms/weekends.

DD has organised a group meetup at ours (mix between primary and secondary friends), they went to the park, ran around, got some food ,back to the park. I'm part of it as well as the kids aren't all local so they needed parents to drop off/pick up. Other parents have different ideas about what's safe/what they're comfortable with their child doing.

Yesterday she did an impromptu bike ride with a friend in the afternoon.

She just organised to go swimming with a friend tomorrow.

Last summer she was out nearly every day on her bike/scooter or on foot or with a football.

In the woods, in the field, park, astro, skate park, tennis courts.

She arranges all this on the phone. She can keep in close contact with new friends and (particularly) old ones on the phone. It's a lot easier to do these things and you can be in contact and "be present" and build/strengthen/maintain relationships with a phone. It just is.

It's not like when I was a kid and everyone had a landline , and everyone went to the same local school anyway, and we were all out outside to begin with so there were always kids to play with. All that and Still managed to wrack up some monumental landline bills for my parents trying to keep in touch with my school friends.

And if you are in that kind of situation, an area with plenty of green space, where all the kids go outside, they all go to the local (close) secondary and know each other , then by all means crack on without a phone. It definitely makes saying no easier. But don't assume that's the case for everyone.

She is 16, will be leaving school to start an apprenticeship after her GCSEs and I hope that no longer being in the toxic environment that is school, we really help her have a healthier relationship with her phone. I hear what you’re saying but I feel she is old enough to limit her time on these apps herself. She does quite often put her phone on do not disturb so she doesn’t receive constant notifications and removes herself from group chats that she doesn’t want to be part of which I encourage as it provides her with peace that she acknowledges that she needs.

If you’re not getting any luck with individual teachers or heads of dept then I would speak to the head. If no joy there then write to your MP with some of the research linked to above. I work in a system where smart phones are banned in all schools. There is absolutely no need for this and it is detrimental to children. The UK gov is consulting more on this issue at the moment. You can help make the change happen.

So why not do it now? Support your DD in stepping away from it. She sounds like she would be quite cooperative.Delete apps now and take control/the blame. Fill up her time with other activities/hobbies. You're still the parent. You can change your mind if things aren't going ok.

There should be but there isn't. They basically miss out and get it set as homework to do anyway once home so they still have to access a screen. Regardless of what screen it is and where they still have to spend hours using one for homework. Even their reading homework has to all be done online on an app. I hate it and am looking at alternative schools but I've found they're all pretty much the same regarding homework all being online, books online etc.

My sons not a gamer and doesn't socialise on phones so he doesn't really want one but has needed one for school so as not to fall even more behind.

They're like a necessary evil now so might aswell accept it and teach him to use it properly. At least it's making him hate them even more 😂

They should be. At school, they can kick a ball, walk around or at least chat to each other. Outside of school they can walk in the woods, climb, explore, play in the river or the snow, ride bikes or skateboards…

The more we talk about this issue, the more parents will be encouraged that not “everyone else is doing it” and there is another way.

As a parent of a dd in year 11, I honestly wish that phones at school were banned. The constant disruption of Snapchat, tiktok and listening to music during lessons using AirPods has been a nightmare!! Nothing but distraction and unfortunately the teachers are not able to manage it, no matter how hard they try!! My dd has also admitted how toxic and distracting the phones can be but finds it very hard to pull herself away from it. She was year 7/8 when Covid hit and the phones became their lifeline, tiktok went crazy, FaceTime and houseparty. She didn’t have Snapchat at that point, that awful app came later as I wouldn’t allow her to have it but eventually caved 🙄 In my personal experience, the phones at time have been hell and I seen the most hateful and vicious messages and videos. If I could turn back time I would. OP stand your ground and go with your gut, it’s 100% correct.

Raise it with the school. It does not have to be like this and there should be a screen free alternative.

Mine got his phone at the start of yr 6 as he was starting to walk home alone and I wanted to be able to track him and him be able to get in touch if needed.
Rules are: we can check the phone when we ask him to - he knows this is to protect him. And it stays downstairs to charge when he goes to bed.
It’s set up linked with mine, so if he tried to download anything (apps etc) it pops up on my phone to authorise or decline. He has no social media.
He does use Whatsapp to talk to a couple of mates, but mainly to share Wordle scores with his aunt who also plays. 😂🤣
He also has the app for his bank account so he can check himself how his savings are doing and how much he has to spend. I work in finance, and I believe it’s a great tool to teach him money management. (He has a spending pot, short term savings pot for specific bigger things he wants to save up for, slightly longer term savings pot for bday and xmas prezzies etc).
Finally, my mother had no qualms in not doing this or forcing me to wear that and I had a really hard time in senior school.
I swore no child of mine would ever feel like that. Not having a phone amongst his particular peer group would make him the odd one out.

The apps are designed to be addictive. The algorithms suggest more and more stuff to keep your interest.Just one more,what harm can it be, they're only 1 minute long.... 3 hours later....For all the complaints about how awful YouTube is years ago, the short vids/reels/shorts are so much worse for attention span , content, intensity and quantity of "information" and sensory overload etc.

That's without the actual issues with content, values and lifestyles promoted, product placement and promotion and the need to also be popular,famous, get the followers,get the likes .

Well, re: alcohol we have a binge drinking culture over and above other European nations, whose children are exposed to it younger than we are. This is shifting to showing statistics being higher here now too re: vaping (admittedly I only read one article on that, so happy to be informed otherwise).

Appreciate your argument around alcohol and I actually agree (as in it’s my personal opinion which is based on nothing other than emotion). I don’t think however the data would back either of us up on this one.

The algorithms on social media are 100% by design to hook us in and cause addiction for all the reasons you state. As such, we cannot escape it, hence we need to learn to manage our ‘fix’. The parents need educating as much, if not more than children however. Children are tech savvy, they don’t know how to regulate and manage emotions as part of growing up. If parents are behind the tech they can’t help them navigate their emotions in that space.

I find it all really fascinating. I would like to think governments and regulators will become more knowledgeable in the coming years to combat the problems we see. However Big Tech will always be one step ahead because they pay immensely well so there isn’t the pull for those clever folk to work for public sector, unless they’re passionate about ‘the mission’.

I think there’s something about the lights, colours and most of all, the gorgeous, dopamine-stimulating touch screen, that humans just can’t resist.

My concern about this is that ‘educating’ kids doesn’t cut it when you’re dealing with something addictive. You could say we should educate kids to handle small amounts of alcohol from age 10 onwards. We don’t do that because they can’t handle it, physically or behaviourally. Imo it’s the same with phones and tablets. The harms outweigh the benefits hugely until you get to at least mid-teens.

It's terrifying. The amount of kids with phones and access to the web, unrestricted, is scary. They are probably accessing graphic porn and forever damaging their poor tiny brains. God help us all.

Thanks for summarising. I haven’t read the whole thread, just some.

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying re: social media. However the answer is not for a blanket ban, rather older generations (including parents of teenagers) to educate themselves and their children rather than fearing it in its entirety.

In response to some other comments and going even further, Minecraft and Roblox can be harmful for children (yes I appreciate going off on a tangent), but they don’t need to be either if a parent learns to navigate controls surrounding it. They don’t bother and give endless and unmonitored screen time exposing children to risk. The principles around teenagers and mobile phones are no different.

Fearing the outcome isn’t educating yourself to manage the potential outcome. The vast majority of parents fly blind to it.

Watching the news this evening there was a segment on social media and parents concerns and fears. They then referred to WhatsApp as social media - it isn’t. The parent interviewed said they didn’t want their friends knowing what they were up to all the time on WhatsApp. They don’t. They clearly had no idea what WhatsApp was. This is an example of a parent panicking when they haven’t got a clue what they are panicking about.

Social media and societal pressures extend far beyond the likes of Instagram and Tik Tok. The wider societal norms and culture in which we live push our children and teenagers down the varying paths we see, not simply social media. Stopping it won’t prevent the problems. Education at all ages will. If children aren’t exposed to certain platforms and conditions, entering the world in which they will live when they are older will be detrimental. It’s about controlling or
moderating what they access. 10 years or so from now we will be far more digital and consumerist than we are today. Whether that is a good or bad thing is a discussion for another time, but it is fact.

So…to answer the original question, I think the fear is far more complex than ‘social media is evil and will cause mental health problems,’ and no, I don’t see an issue with phones for secondary aged children, providing controls are in place.

A smartphone is completely different to an old Nokia. Our concern has been explained many times throughout the thread. Tween and teen mental health have gone through the floor since 2010 and there's lots of evidence it's as a result of smartphones and social media.