Why shouldn’t life be made easier for pregnant women/mothers?

It does make sense. If everyone has flexibility to what is important to them or what they need to do, then people don't care what others are doing.

Child free people still have family, friends, other commitments outside of work that are important to them. If they need to start later or leave early for those reasons, but then told they can't. But then another member of staff is allowed to do so because it's the child's sports day/Christmas play etc then that's when it becomes an issue. It creates a list of acceptable reasons based on people's personal choices and if it's not child related, it's not deemed acceptable, which is unfair and causes frustration.

Flexibility, WFH etc shouldn’t be just applied to mothers but to all regardless of age, gender, childbearing status, car ownership, number of vowels in their name etc etc. FIFY.

I have a long term medical condition. It’s made much better by exercise. I’d like to exercise in the light as a lone female it’s much safer. I’d like to finish early in winter months and log back on later. Not permitted. I tried shifting the whole day earlier as it also meant I’d miss school run traffic but again not permitted. Parents do nursery pick up then log back on and that’s no bother. That’s what people have the gripe with. Respectfully, having a child IS a choice and for those of us where medically that choice has been taken away means we are basically seen as cash cows, by workplaces, by the government, and by other parents, to provide the time, finances etc that they ‘can’t’ as a result of their choices. It’s not a case for us of ‘your time will come’ which is often trotted out, or you are young you must rather have NYE off, where additional flexibility is offered only to parents. I’m not talking about maternity, which is valid time for the health of the mother following birth, nor for medical appointments or if they are genuinely to ill to work during actual pregnancy, I’m talking about the 3yr old with pickup, the 8yr old with sports day, ‘families’ with Christmas, with every bank holiday or other peak holiday (because without children you don’t have a family remember!). Those are not legally protected under maternity yet are often ringfenced by employers as for parents only, and that is what people are pushing back against.

Do I think being pregnant deserves special accommodation, well It is labelled ‘special’ but actually that’s because it is labelled so by the patriarchal workplaces where your usefulness is measured against capitalist norms of output and production. If equality in the workplace really existed, women who were pregnant would not be described as needing ‘special’ treatment and women would be respected for creating life

Yes - it's the toxic trinity of the white, patriarchy along with capitalism.

As for P&C spaces, they should be renamed as a pp said and created as paid for spaces for people with bigger cars.

Non disabled people could also use them if they pay - eg if they have broken their leg and need the space temporarily until their leg heals.

However, I'd prefer it if the actual problem were fixed - the fact that cars are getting bigger and bigger, even the small ones. The government should set size limits. Our roads and car parks are not designed for large cars. I've also noticed lorries getting bigger as well.

Sorry I digress somewhat!

Not read the whole thread but I find the attitude to work in general quite baffling - although maybe people are just conditioned to think they are lucky to have a job.

It all has to stop. Businesses need people. They need people with talent - any talent (which may be being able to stack shelves accurately without getting bored, or doing creative work in an ad agency - whatever). People are not lucky to have a job - they are an integral part of the businesses' success. But somehow we've lost that realisation - or maybe we never had it (although I was reading an article recently where the author seemed to think that people were valued better in the 1970s, at least as far as wages were concerned).

So, in my view, they should treat people well. All people. We have all this DE&I nonsense (nonsense because most businesses just pay lip service to it) but actually we just need to treat people fairly, as individuals and not assume everyone is a malingerer. If they are, you deal with them. You don't punish everyone else.

So if a pregnant woman needs time off for appointments, and is a good worker whose contribution you value - you give her the time off without moaning, If a man needs to take his elderly parent to a hospital appointment every week, and is a good worker whose contribution you value - you give him the time off without moaning.

Obviously there are some jobs where you need bums on seats but it still should be possible to accommodate flexible working in most cases.

I was working from home during my first pregnancy and was way more productive because of it. I could just have my bucket next to my desk. And, yes, when needed the odd power nap.

If I'd been in the office I would have spent half the days camped out in the toilet, and no power naps so way more unproductive.

Guess you have no other points to make then. Glad you're seeing sense...

But the reason they get those is because of the cost involved with raising children, you don't have those specific costs?

Yes like someone i know who has been waiting five years for a knee replacement

Glad you are in a union and that they are starting to notice

Parent and child spaces should be renamed as I can think of lots of examples where people might need the extra room but wouldn’t qualify for a blue badge. The parents who can’t see that are as bad as the people who moan about not having such spaces when their kids are young.
Before anyone asks P&C are fair game in examples like when disabled spaces are full, a pregnant driver needs to open the door fully and struggles to walk to the shop or a passenger needs space because they are on crutches or something.

My issue is that it automatically makes the woman the default parent when children have two parents who both should be responsible for them.

Flexibility, WFH etc shouldn’t be just applied to mothers but to fathers as well.

My point is though that I don’t think pregnant women are respected given that this is labelled ‘special’ treatment when actually it should just be being treated equally. Equality shouldn’t look like being treated the same as a heterosexual man as this results in our value being about our usefulness at work.

Of course they shouldn’t and actually equality in the workplace is about dependency care as well as it most falls to women. It’s because all of this is seen as women’s work, if men were the pregnant ones or predominantly the people that provided unpaid carer roles, flexibility in the workplace would be of greater importance.

I agree but I think we should be looking to make life better for most people. In real practical terms it is hard without doing so at the expense of others and without unlimited money.

But people women who are unable or unwilling to create life shouldn’t be disrespected or treated as inferior beings. And very often that is what happens in the workplace.

Yes, I agree but again, I couldn’t get any time off to organise my Dad’s housing even though it was urgent, there are going to be many women in my scenario where they are also predominantly looking after the children- the sandwich generation. This is not argument against dependency leave been given due consideration but IMO my need for being granted that with an elderly parent is not any less just because I have had maternity leave with a different employer in the past. Do I think being pregnant deserves special accommodation, well It is labelled ‘special’ but actually that’s because it is labelled so by the patriarchal workplaces where your usefulness is measured against capitalist norms of output and production. If equality in the workplace really existed, women who were pregnant would not be described as needing ‘special’ treatment and women would be respected for creating life.

Yes. We all have it at my workplace now but for the first 5 years I was there, only parents were ever granted it. Anyone else got hit with the "business need says no" stick.

Now the same thing applies to part-time working. Every parent who has come back to work and requested PT working has gotten it. Every person without kids who has requested it has been told no, business needs.

(I know this because it's finally getting put on our union's radar.)

I do agree that flexible working is far more likely to be granted to parents and that any other reason than “I have a child” is not considered a good enough reason. It’s not supposed to be discriminate but humans are humans and it is.

A right to ask yes. But not a right to have it. And the reality in most workplaces is that requests from people with children are more likely to be granted than those from people with elderly parents. Especially if those people are childless.

But all employees have a statutory rights to request flexible working.

Yes, it is the Sandwich generation- caring for children and caring for the elderly. Most unpaid caters are women, whether that is for the elderly or a relative with a chronic/terminal medical condition, where every sibling has children it is statistically likely that if there is a daughter it will fall to her. Anecdotally, I have a brother, we both have children, I have been the one to sort my Dad’s housing issues out, making phone calls on my work lunchtime to organisation’s that can help, I have two DC to care for along with DH but he works away frequently as bigger earner. I do stuff for DH’s Mum occasionally as well. I wouldn’t think this scenario is particularly unusual. I do think people should have dependent’s care anyway and they do with my employer. Pregnancy can be difficult for some and it is an impact on your own health which is hard going, it is surely a sign of a civilised society to afford that priority. I would constantly faint during my first pregnancy and I absolutely had to be afforded special consideration at work when I was coming around from those episodes. What was my LM supposed to do step over me when lying on the office or steps of the building one time!

That’s not an outrageous suggestion at all. It’s a sensible one I’d say. Maternity tights are enshrined in law but having a flexible employer is not.

also some people have young children AND are a carer for elderly parents. My Aunty-in-law (who was one of eight children born when her mum was 45) was 35 when she shared care of her elderly mum with her sister. She also had a 6yo and a toddler to juggle.

I agree with you to an extent, but I notice you’ve focussed on the childless persons other responsibilities and them being the ones to change. I’m not having a go, because I think people in general are free to move to try and get what they want, but I think you’d have got outrage if you’d suggested that someone with a young child find a different career with more flexible options if their current one requires working Xmas day on a rota, though they equally could move and work elsewhere.

I think the reality is that there are a whole host of reasons why people may need more flexibility at work, or space in a car park not through choice and yet ‘but I have kids’ seems to be trotted out as a way to get priority.

Yes the infrastructure challenges/bad bosses are not the fault of the pregnant woman but I can easily see how a tinkly person giggling whilst plotting calling in sick when it’s their turn to work Xmas day is enough to tip a frustrated person over the edge into telling them to piss off/children aren’t a disability etc etc etc

Nobody would have a beef with P&at spaces being closest if all spaces were wide enough. When I had a broken leg I still needed to get to the Drs for example. Temporary so can’t get a blue badge, needed the space to open the door fully to get my leg out. P&C space the best option. I they didn’t exist we’d probably have just parked over 2 spaces. I was once let out of the car before my partner then backed in to the rest of the space and a car drove fast at me on the horn because I was then standing in the road waiting for my partner to bring the crutches and they had to wait while a car came the other way to drive round me. Don’t need that sort of aggression.

im also medically not able to have kids, and yet I think the view on flexibility for those with children is still ‘everyone will benefit at some point so it doesn’t matter if it is the ones who don’t currently need it who do the covering’. If you are always the one doing the covering believe me it grates. We’ve had a few kids born at work recently and every single person without fail, male and female, has come back with some sort of flexible request that has been granted, but I was not allowed to shift my day by 30 minutes so as to avoid the school run outside my house on the commute because the phones need covering despite having to answer the incoming calls being not actually in my job and something that we all in our dept have just as a ‘if others engaged type thing. I think employers are scared of pushing back when people say oh but the kids.

Really the solution is to make things better for everyone, but maybe, just maybe, a little appreciation that whilst it should be the workplace putting in enough staff etc in reality it is just the other employees doing the covering a lot of the time for the parent, and a thanks rather than an expectation wouldn’t go amiss when it’s unexpected eg kid sick at nursery needs picking up, and maybe making arrangements sometimes to be the one who stays late would go a long way. People are once bitten twice shy about a lot of things so if you’ve had a piss taker parent in the past your view of course starts with ‘here we go again’ when the flexibility requests start, I think that’s just human nature.