To exclude one child from family holiday

OP, ignore the martyrs, a 17yo who tells you ‘Shut the fuck up you fucking slag’ should not be rewarded with a holiday.

Tell her she will not be coming due to her behaviour but that if she shows you the respect you’re due as a human being then you will take her away for a weekend just the two of you.

OP - I don’t know how much has been discussed about her dad in therapy, and perhaps this ground has already been covered, but as you’ve said she doesn’t know about the prison spell…

Am wondering whether now she is nearing adulthood, you need to have quite an honest conversation (perhaps with therapist) about your relationship with her dad. As a mum in a DV situation it’s natural to want to protect small children from the truth, not demonize a father they may well continue to see regularly etc. But when you throw his death into the mix and the kind of language she is using with you (slag etc) it suggests to me that there a deep issue here with her feelings around her dad and you, the fact you have a happier life now and he was rejected by you and then died - there’s all kinds of narratives someone could spin emotionally with that info, that aren’t necessarily a fair reflection of the situation but would create blow back on you.

My best advice is to explore this area (if not done in detail already) and try to have an adult conversation with her about your own experiences in your relationships… get some outside advice about how to handle it. I don’t mean dump on her about the DV and talk trash about her dad, I mean try to give her a window into your journey staying focused on your personal experience. Light touch on her dad’s issues, but focus on how the relationship affected you, what’s different in your current relationship. How important it was to you tot ale her into consideration when you started your relationship etc etc.

Sounds to me like she has an idealized image of her dad and can’t square her feelings for him with being ‘kind’ to you somehow. That her grief has turned into resentment to you, and that perhaps with more understanding of you over time she might find a more useful way to deal with all her feelings. Essentially perhaps try to be more vulnerable and honest and not present the “I’m a great mum” face to her, but admit your own struggles and failings (we all have them!) It’s hard to be imperfect when your role model seems to always get it ‘right’.

This - what part of the above is not true? You may not have had any intent to hurt your daughter but she is clearly hurting and lashing out. I think the frank and honest chat with her about the holiday and your concerns, and offering to go away just you and her, would be the best option.

Not acceptable behaviour from a 17 year old whatever the reasons. I wouldn’t include her on the next holiday unless her behaviour drastically improves and would make that clear. I was holidaying with my friends by 17 definitely not too old to not be included.

A termination should only be the woman’s choice. Certainly a stupid thing to recommend when a child is here.

Im sure the op asked about a holiday not for a load of people who think they have a missed occupation in child mental health to give their ridiculous assumptions. Which most have you have got wrong time and time again!

Is there anything she'd enjoy doing instead? Eg staying at grandparents and having a friend to stay, having a few takeaways or film nights or something? If grandparents are willing!

If she actively wants to come on holiday, that's more difficult

Could you also try engaging your brain and have a bit of empathy???!

The OP's DD is not the only one traumatised by past experience and nasty little comments like yours are the antithesis of helpful!

Repeat your last sentence back to yourself, inserting 'person' for "parent"!!! Nasty and unhelpful!

I have a sister born when I was 15 and I’m appalled that anyone can claim the attention is all baby focused when it really isn’t. You budge up and make room for a new addition to the family. If anything we were treated more grown up and had more freedom.

Not all teens want to be Molly coddled.

Age is irrelevant. You tell her she was absolutely dreadful on your recent holiday and won't be coming on the next one!

Your attitude is bizarre. Who are you to say the OP should have terminated a wanted pregnancy?!!

Joining the family holiday is a privilege not a right. If she cannot behave for a weekend, then she’s lost that privilege. She’s 17, she lives elsewhere. It’s a lot of money to spend to risk one person ruining it.

I mean, it’s not rocket science is it? Her dad died. You had more children. She feels pushed out and replaced and is bereaved. She’s lost. She’s really fucking angry. And you’re one person who ‘has’ to take it. You’re supposed to be able to withstand her rage and pain, which is coming out as abuse.

I’m not sure what would happen if you cemented her fears and feelings by actually excluding her.

OP, I’m sorry I have no advice to give on your situation but reading some of the awful replies I just wanted to send you some love. I am one of 4 girls, the eldest, growing up the 3rd sister was an absolute nightmare, you were constantly treading on eggshells if she didn’t have her own way, she was rude, nasty and difficult 80% of the time and the absolute best the other 20. She ended up moving out from moms, to dads, to grandmas, to both aunties, to moms cousins and then back home before finding her own feet at 18. She’s an adult now, mom herself and she’s amazing but still has her moments. I’m telling you this because the other 3 of us weren’t like this and we all had the same upbringing, no trauma, so for everyone in the comments blaming you, please don’t listen. Sending you hugs x

I've only read your replies OP, and from them it's clear as day that you refuse to accept any blame in your daughters behaviour. Her problems stem from the parenting she received from you, the trauma of her dad dying, you bringing a new man into her home, you having more kids, and her being moved to her grandparents (which you say you didn't do but also didn't stop which is basically the same thing) when those kids were born. You can keep pretending you didn't replace her with your new family, and that you tried your best to mother her, but it's clear to everyone that thats not true. None of us are making up stories, which you keep accusing people of doing, we are all just going off on what you have written. Stop worrying about going on holiday and use the money on family therapy instead. Surely all your kids having happy and healthy relationships with each other is more important that any holiday?

I've read and re-read your posts, @Mama1209, and I'm not sure there is a perfect solution.

If you don't take your DD on holiday, you'll push her further away from you.

If your DD comes on holiday, chance are, she'll ruin it for everyone else, and she's not the only person you have to think about.

But I think that's the crux of the problem - you have two other children of your own and one stepchild, plus a husband. You're never going to be able to give her all of you because you chose to widen your family unit from what was at one point, just the two of you, to six people. You have a good relationship with them all, so you've increased the amount of love you receive. This is the opposite to her story. All of these people have come along and taken more and more of her mum away from her. She only has one parent left and she hasn't felt like she's had enough of that parent for a very long time.

Being a teen is pretty miserable at the best of times, but when you factor in all the other stuff, I bet she's lonely as hell and kicking off for a reaction, just to check whether anyone still cares she exists. I wonder if she actually wanted to stay with her grandparents when she first moved there or if she was secretly hoping you would fight for her.

I'm not saying you're unreasonable to have moved on and to have sought out happiness after a horrible relationship involving DV, but your DD will have experienced everything very differently to you. You've made a lot of changes, big changes, and none of those were within her control. Running off to her grandparents seems to be the only big thing she's been able to do for herself and by herself since you and her father separated. I'm sure you thought you were doing the best thing by her by letting her make that choice, but I wonder what she actually wanted you to do.

In an ideal world, you'd be able to have a grown up conversation with your DD to discuss what you both need to do to repair your relationship, including perhaps her (and you) skipping this holiday and the two of you doing something together instead. In reality, I think she's hurting too much for that to happen without any professional help mediating that.

I honestly think therapy is needed for both of you individually and together. You've both been through so much, and I think if you could both see each other's points of views better, you could have a much better relationship. The trouble with trauma is it can come out in ways we don't notice or expect and there's no timeline on dealing with it.

You both need some support. You're asking what to do, so presumably you still want a relationship with your DD. The fact that she wants to go on this holiday of doom despite being angry all the time suggests that she still wants a relationship with you. If you both want to fix this, it will be fixable. Look into therapy again. It's not a case of you went once, you finished it, and you're all better. With trauma, there are times in your life when things resurface and you need more help than others.

I can empathise OP as the last family holiday we went on my 17 year old was a complete nightmare. Afterwards I vowed never to go on holiday with her again as it was so awful. The difference is that we just won't go on holiday again at all until the children have left home, there is no way I would book a holiday and exclude her- it would destroy her.
My daughter also has trauma and the change on holiday is just too much for her to cope with. Please recognise there is pain somewhere that is causing this behaviour.

This goes much deeper than just an issue regarding a family holiday. She's your daughter! If she's going to spoil the holiday, then by all means dont take her, but she certainly needs some proper help and support regardless of the holiday decision.
Maybe something 1 on 1 so she doesn't feel so replaced?

Have caught up a bit with the thread.
Your poor daughter 😞

Sounds like us. We are lucky.

That massive drip feed actually makes all of this worse.

That’s a bit sad. Our holidays have been great, we have all got fantastic memories. The older they got the more space we made sure they got. Own hotel rooms, in Florida always staying in places where they had their own room + bathroom. In cities they could bring a friend each etc.

I am honestly so greatful for our time together, and our oldest 23 is coming with us for a weekend holiday soon. They’ve got their own places and travel with friends obviously, but we still have such good times together going away.

Have only read the first page, but I think you need to think very carefully about this.

She lost her dad, you remarried and had more dc. Whilst in no way am I saying that you’ve done the wrong thing, I think you need to see it from her point of view.

She’s had probably the worst loss a child can have, then her mum has moved on, has new children etc. (again, no blame, but for a teenager things are rarely rational).

If you go away without her it will give her the message that she’s expendable, when she already probably feels pushed out. She’s 17, but she’s gone through more than most 17 yr olds have, you can’t treat this like a typical stroppy teenager.

If you go away I suspect this will be a death knell to your relationship. She needs to know you’re there for her whatever, and her behaviour is typical of hurting teens. I sort of feel that the very fact that you’ve considered leaving her behind confirms that your DD’s feelings are very valid.

I'd come at it that it didn't work last Time and you get that she finds it hard. Ask if she wants to do something just the two of you here?

OP I know you don’t want your parenting criticised, but you can’t really ask for advice on this situation without outlining the huge backstory. This is far more than just a stroppy teen who needs a firm hand.

Yanbu op, she is 17 and well old enough to know to speak respectfully at the very bare minimum. Why should every other family member suffer and have a horrible time because of one person? That isn't fair to every other person. Her very recent behaviour is a good predictor of what is to happen. I'm sure her siblings would be happy too if she didn't come. At 17 don't most children get to opt in or out of holidays in any case? Don't feel bad, the rest of the family deserve to also have a peaceful and happy holiday.