To exclude one child from family holiday

Why sad? I stopped going on family holiday as well around that time as I rpeferred and started going on summer youth camps and trips with friends instead.

She shouldn't be acting that way at 17 there is no need whatsoever. She needs to learn she can't always get her own way.
I don't envy you having to make the decision OP. It is a difficult one.
I've gone through childhood trauma and I would completely understand being excluded from a family holiday if I was behaving the way she was. There"s no excuse for her behaviour. She needs to learn personal responsibility.

Hi Op, I have a teen who went through a very difficult few years and has come out the other side - now an absolute gem. As far as I am aware they had no underlying truma to explain why they behaved as they did, other than teenage hormones. Age 17/18 they matured massively(part time job really helpful) and maybe that is what you are witnessing... I am not underplaying what you and your daughter have had to cope with, I am just saying you are getting a massively hard time on this thread when teens can behave badly/irrationally regardless.

What type of holiday are you going on?

Is there room in the itinerary to let teen do their own parallel thing if they want to? Eg, you guys off to the beech/waterpark for skrake of dawn, whilst eldest fulfils greatest desire of lounging in apartment/by pool. Then come together in the evening for nice meal and catch up. It would avoid a lot of disagreement flash points and keep everyone happy.

Have chat and see if realistic to accommodate her wishes and agree broad expectations on both sides, so everyone can have a stress free time. If she'd still like to go, that is a win and I would definitely bring her.

For us, holidays definitely brought us together. Yes, there were moments, but I had to learn to treat the older teen on adult terms (it is that funny half way house, where they are a child who wants to be treated like an adult, but is not yet behaving like an adult. I do think the Covid years affected a number of kids of this age group, regardless of circumstance, and they maybe taking a little longer to mature than normal). Cut her a little slack and it is amazing how they rise to your expectations when you drop the stress of asking them to comply.

Once given their freedom within the holiday, my DS was happy and with the pressure off, joined us for the bits that appealed to him, did his own thing rest of time (and yes, this included some ridiculously long lie-ins which irritated me, but we just ignored and he figured out he was wasting his own time etc).

All best whatever you decide.

When my DSD was a little younger than your DD she was a handful and constantly at risk of being excluded from school. Everytime her behavior got bad her mother would just ship her off to us instead of dealing with it. DSD also played off the 2 homes scenario to avoid the consequences of her awful conduct. When she was about 15 and back living with us I told her that if she behaved respectfully towards us we wouldn’t micromanage her and we’d treat her like an adult. She understood the concept of a social contract and things really improved. She’s now in her 30s and says I’m the only person who has held her accountable for her actions and it really helped her to navigate relationships….so I say have the talk and be really firm. If she needs to be excluded from the holiday to learn that if she acts unpleasantly no-one wants to endure that, then so be it.

@Mama1209

I think - if she gets her up, there is no point arguing or challenging her, and it’s best to have discussions when she is a calm reasonable mood.

Can you just be really open with her, and say much as you’d want her to come - you don’t think she enjoyed the last holiday? Could you suggest you have an alternative weekend away with just you and her, doing something she really wants to do - and spend some quality time with her?
I think she’s found her past really difficult, and needed an extra helping of love and security.

This.

I would leave her at home if there’s a risk
she’d ruin the holiday for everyone else. At 17 she needs to learn it’s not acceptable to behave like that. Time to grow up or ship out!

Secondly, we are a family. I don’t just put one persons needs first.

This post of yours tells that you are too inflexible to tweak your rules for benefit of your troubled daughter.

To answer your question in Op, yes exclude her from summer family holiday. You are happier without her.

Agree with this and similar replies. Looks like she needs a good listening-to.

From the age of 16, my parents funded low-cost holidays (camping, youth hostelling) for me to go away with a friend instead of on the family holiday. Saved our parents from having to try and chivvy sullen teenagers along, and gave us the opportunity to be (teenage ideas of) grown up!

Depending on how your talks pan out, would something along those lines appeal?

Can you both do trauma informed family therapy. Trauma is not just for losing her father. Kids who witness domestic violence between parents can also have trauma, plus her life changed when you moved on in your new life. It is not easy for some kids, not all kids are strong and resilient. A little extra empathy from parents is important for a child's healing in this kind of situation. If parents don't understand, who else can you rely on when you are a troubled teenager.

I agree. I think it's all unfair to not give the information about dad's trauma. I feel sorry for her, basically mother has abandoned that child.

Wise words here, OP, from @WhatADayToHaveEyes and @InactionIsAWeaponOfMassDestruction.

I think you have to include her.
It could be one of the last family holidays before she starts uni or a job and becomes more restricted in joining you.

Ideas ..
Confer with her grandparents and agree on a very lovely girlfriend of your daughter being invited too. Having a friend might help your daughter behave in an adult way. The two of them could do a couple of more independent activities together (and maybe with the 15 year old ss) such as surfing lessons or a more adult film, bowling. You could also give them a time where they are responsible and are asked to baby sit for an hour or two and preparing a meal for everyone.

You would expect to hear your daughter's opinions and I would not confront her but I would also expect polite, non shouting/swearing in front of others.

Your holiday could have blips of angry hurricane and be prepared to leave her to calm down until she composes acceptable words. Go on with your plans; don't give in to unreasonable requests or condone tantrums.

But will she behave at Gran's place when she is in turmoil over being left behind? Will Gran be able to handle her if DD decides to stage a major event in revenge?

Don’t underestimate the impact of bereavement.

childhood bereavement suddenly makes it clear that trusted adults in your life can, and do leave you. Whether it’s their choice or not.

it fucks up your ability to form secure attachments as it’s always there in the back of your head, what if they leave, and get into a car crash.

i spend most of my teen years pushing my mother away. I think if she’d had formed a new relationship and had more children I’d have struggled.

most of my thoughts are occupied with catastrophic thoughts. If I can’t hear dh snoring my brain immediately starts planning how I’ll call 999 and start cpr, and how will I tell the kids he’s died. If anyone’s late home I wait for the police to knock on the door…

The fact you are even considering excluding a 17 year old child from your ‘family’ holiday speaks volumes when she’s already been living with grandparents. A lot of your responses are about how her behaviour has impacted you and your children, and your way of life. I feel very sorry for your 17 year old. I completely understand why she acts in anger.

It sounds like your daughter has experienced a lot of trauma and rejection. If you cement that with excluding her from a family holiday that everyone else gets to go on, then that's probably going to be the final nail in the coffin for your relationship with her. That's the sort of thing people don't really get past having done to them when they're 17. She might be able to be civil with you, but if you do this, she will always remember it.

She's a traumatised and hurt 17 year old. Parenting her may well be difficult and even upsetting at times, but she's just as deserving of it as your other children.

Have you asked her how she feels your recent interactions have gone? What's her perspective? What does she want to do?

I mean it doesn’t take a genius to work out why the DD has anger issues.

Its an understandable reaction. but would likely be the end for you both. You keep saying you spend time with her one on one, but how often? The fact ahe decided to move to her Grandparents doesnt mean it's actually what she wants or that she's happy there. Maybe she wanted you to tell her she couldn't and that she belongs with her family. The behaviour not good, but she's been through a lot and it must be hard living apart from you.

Sit and talk with her just the two of you, ask what she wants from the holiday, there's a technique too where you ask the kid what they think should happen when they do x behaviour, might be worth a try. Maybe you can arrange some one to one time, maybe she'd like to hang at the hotel or mostly do her own thing. Try and reduce the possibility for those negative interactions. Im not saying give in to her, but be clear beforehand so she knows what's happening, let her know she can opt in and out of plans as she wants, no pressure.

Im guessing from your non specifics that spending one on one time is not a particularly regular thing? Im not having a go, things can easily get missed when you're busy and exhausted, but it does need to be a priority. Even just the option that your regularly ask even if she doesn't take you up on it. By regular I mean specific time at least fortnightly, even if it just starts out as something little like coffee/hot chocolate at a cafe once a fortnight. Id also be looking to strengthen her connection with her siblings at a seperate time and place. You mentioned a 12 year old, if they both game even just remotely that could be a way to start building a connection. She needs those family connections.

She's been through a lot of trauma, CBT and talking therapy aren't necessarily very useful for that. Did you do anything truama specific like DBT? Maybe she needs more specialised support than what she's had so far. If I was you Id be sitting down and thinking through how I could make a concerted effort to rebuild things with her and it will have to be a long term commitment with zero expectation of anything back for a long time. Im not accusing you or saying you haven't done a lot in the past, but she's 17 and this may be your last chance to fix things. My big sister was like this, went totally off the rails, she had serious mental health problems, police involved There was a lot less help back then, I haven't seen her is 30 years. I missed her for a long time. I was a teen, young carer,.I got really really sick at the same time so I didn't have a chance to repair things. I don't honestly know how I feel all these many years later, but I know our DPs regret it and would do things differently if they had the chance again.

The OP has never apologised for her choices. She has defended her choices.

Time will allow her dd to gain some prospective as well. She’s 17 and cannot see beyond her own needs. The op has to think of her family, herself and dd. It’s not all about dd. The op shouldn’t need to keep apologising for her choices. Imagine living life like that!

It’s lovely you and your mum have found peace, but if your story is the same as the ops maybe you could be a bit more forgiving. As an adult you can see life happens and people make choices. We’re allowed to get it wrong sometimes.

OK, consider me thouroughly called out.

Feel better now 👍

No I'm not smug, I am calling you out for your callous and mean posts. You can give advice without being so mean and judgemental, and your post is all based on assumptions without the full details of what's going on.

OP, I was your daughter 23 years ago. You don’t say whether or not her Father abused her, but you mention DV & if she only witnessed this as a young child that will have caused significant trauma on its own. The death of her father is a huge trauma, whether you were together or not. And new husbands & siblings can also be traumatic for children & young people, although adults often hate to admit it. Look up Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE’s). From your responses I can see your daughter has experienced at least 3. Each ACE increases the chances of significant difficulties for the child into adulthood.

I needed far more than a bit of counselling. I’ve had to have decades of psychiatric intervention, still ongoing. I have significant mental illness as a result of trauma throughout my childhood.

At the time, my Mother also felt she was doing her best. But 23 years on she sees she made so many mistakes & that her decisions & behaviour often made matters much, much worse. However, we finally have a decent relationship. Mostly because she is genuinely sorry & tried her best to repair our relationship in recent years.

You have to be willing to admit you made mistakes if you want to repair your relationship with your daughter. It may take a considerable amount of time. Time will allow you to gain some perspective too. This is just the beginning for your daughter. It will likely get much worse before it gets better. But that’s the nature of coming to terms with trauma as a young woman. For now, the best thing you can do is never abandon your daughter, no matter how difficult things get.

Whereas you don't come across as smug and sanctimonious at all....

I'm all good with what I wrote.