To exclude one child from family holiday

In your posts it really sounds like you don’t like your daughter OP. You had already moved on way before her father died and she knew it. Almost everything you write is about your daughter’s negative impact on yourself or the other children. You have not helped your daughter navigate through all the changes in her life yet you come across as wanting/needing everyone to think you’re a great parent dealing with the adversity that is your daughter. People are making ‘judgements’ based on the words you use. The fact you believe the major issue here is whether you should allow your daughter to go on holiday is incredibly enlightening.

Ah, I'm so sorry, you've been through the mill too.

Sometimes, it's hard to meet another person's trauma & pain when we have had experience of our own, especially if on some level we are comparing the two.

I do hope you both can have some family counselling.

Have you looked into the narcissistic family structure? Your daughter sounds like the ‘black sheep’ Your approach towards her sounds like you view her as the ‘black sheep’. Going forward it might be helpful to find a counsellor who could help you with this family dynamic. I hope your daughter gets all the support she deserves.

Is your daughter able to articulate why she thinks she behaves the way she does?

Did she actually say, ..."don’t work and aren’t going to bring her dad back" - does she want her dad back, were they close before he died?

It's interesting if she did as that sounds like (as well as living with paternal grandparents) that she is possibly seeking that connection again but of course is never able to fulfil it - other than seeking out some unsafe behaviours. I wonder if she is like her dad in temperament? Perhaps she is struggling with identifying herself with her dad and scared of what that might mean? You said that she was angry with you for not taking her side in an argument with your son - I wonder if she feels she does not fit in because she doesn't see herself, her behaviour reflected back in that moment by a parent (dad) and know that it'll be ok and she'll be accepted and forgiven anyway (but still given consequences/boundaries).

I think if you take her with you on holiday then you take her as she is regarding her emotions. It's probably hard for her to stop feeling the way she does at this moment in time, but you can certainly the two of you talk through a plan of if she is feeling angry/overwhelmed that she take herself off to calm down as you want to support her but can't when she is so angry she can't hear (and you're possibly reacting to it). Maybe state what your boundary is, i.e. no swearing aggressively at you in anger, no swearing around the younger siblings, and that if she does that, what she needs to do to self-regulate. If you know what the triggers are, could you head off an argument in a different way?

If you've considered she is neurodivergent, then lots of behaviour issues come down to anxiety - would that help you reframe it? Have you looked into how to support children who are ND?

You don't sound like you like her very much @Mama1209 which I'm sure she is picking up on too. I've always found that hurt people, hurt people - it's possible your daughter is lashing out so much because she is in a tremendous amount of emotional pain.

Are you okay, too? It sounds like you've been through a lot as well which I'm worried has been glossed over.

We haven't been on holiday with ours since they turned 16. It got harder as they got older and it became really stressful.

Holiday sounds lovely Op and sounds as if it could work for all different ages (& temperaments 😊). We did similar on our first break away after Covid and it worked really well, took the pressure off, very relaxed.

Maybe encourage a wee part time job, if she doesn't already have one & wants money. We gave a nudge in the right direction as to places to apply, but they were surprisingly enthusiastic. It was the independence he craved and it, along with learning to drive, has been fantastic.

I know your daughter has had to deal with a lot, I know behaviour has not been ideal, but she obviously has spark and strong will... When she clicks that she can put all that to good use as an adult, she will probably ace life and be so, so resilient. Navigating peer pressure is tricky, great to get over that hump. Pull her close if you can, overlook the small stuff. If she just isn't playing ball, then an activity week with new peers as pp mentions might be an alternative she would relish. My sister thought very highly of the National Citizen Service Scheme for 16/17 year old in the summer- her youngest loved it and flourished over the summer she attended. Or there are various residential outdoor schemes which aren't too pricy if they volunteer, Google ideas for Gold Duke of Ed residential (you don't actually need to be doing the Award, although she may like to) - they may need a police check if volunteering so worth organising now for summer. All best.

Losing your dad at 15 is not remotely comparable.

He died after prison though. And he went to prison for what again?

She is clearly significantly harmed and hasn’t had the needed support.

Have a read up on ACE's (adverse childhood events) and the PACE (playfulness, acceptance, curiosity, empathy) approach to managing behaviour. Sounds like just the approach your daughter needs and probably would have benefitted from through her earlier years too

Which is wonderful but that doesn't mean she's emerged unscathed or without trauma.

Try asking her? Is she seeing that she is included only in a trip organised for the younger ones. Have you discussed/investigated what is there for older teenagers (not just a teen club for 10-14s)
It may have been that she felt compelled to come/felt she was owed a holiday, but did not feel that the holiday was about her, but all about your younger children? It is tempting as parents of little ones to organise holiday activities around them.

Either way, tell her that her joining you is conditional on not repeating her recent behaviour.

Does not seem as if you would be using her as a babysitter (this has been the subject of many a conversation here on MumsNet).
But if she is acting up, then perhaps her grandparents are looking forward to a break from her too?
Can you cancel her out and have money then for her to do something else? Is there any college trip that she could join instead? (My DD went to France and Spain with the school, in her 6th form years, and then in her post-A level Summer, went off to Rome with her classmates).

Is there an opportunity to include a friend/cousin more her own age, so they can do their thing together?

So she had two loving caring parents as she entered the world who put her needs ahead of all else through her early year?

She sounds like she's suffering from a lot of trauma that needs the help of a therapist.

Think about it from her perspective, dad passed away, mum has remarried with 3 more kids, mum has accepted her living with grandparents. She probably feels horrendously pushed out and the nasty behaviour is a cry for help. Perhaps subconsciously you see her as the black sheep and she has picked up on this.

17 IS young and still a child, some 17 year olds are far more mature than others. Her brain is not fully developed yet and she is responding to trauma the only way she knows how. If you exclude her from a family holiday you will affirm to her that she is indeed the black sheep. Instead of a family holiday, may I suggest spending the money on a good family therapist. This needs to be unpacked before it becomes even more toxic for your entire family.

This is also unfair on her grandparents who probably want to enjoy their retirement without all of this stress!

I missed the one where someone you said you should have aborted..I hope they got reported, that's a terrible thing to say

I agree that bad behaviour needs consequences but I still think the underlying issues here are emotional trauma (sense of rejection, abandonment).

She is now blaming my son saying when they argue I don’t defend her
This jumped out at me - this is someone who feels like a second-class child. You've given her so much, but something is missing - an unmet emotional need - and until you recognise this she won't be able to heal.