To exclude one child from family holiday

@Mmarfa i think you need to read OP’s posts. Massive back story.

I think not taking her could cause issues in your relationship that might make things worse.
Could she take a friend- maybe ask them to contribute and let them do their own thing? At that age she could be going on holiday herself anyway and it means she can be with you but have her freedom and space.

All the older teens I know still holiday with parent. None seem unwilling to to go and all appear very happy to have a free holiday.

Dd is 22y and is still coming on holiday/long weekends with us at least 2-3 times a year, which we pay for. We enjoy each other's company and have a similar taste for many holiday types/activities when there. And she's not daft - a free holiday staying in hotels and locations she'd be less likely to,afford herself.

She does also go away with friends or to see friends without us, which she pays for.
And we have been away without her too.

ours went with us until recent years and we still do but not every hol#

years ago we left our daughter behind to teach her a lesson whist everyone else went - she learnt her lesson pretty quick - she was later 20's at the time

Nonsense - mine still holiday with me at 27 and 25.

I think not taking her would permanently damage your relationship. Ask her if she wants to go.

Oh dear, OP - you’ve asked for advice about a holiday and had all your decisions for the last 17 years examined!

I think everything regarding your daughter’s past has already been discussed in minute detail, and as there is absolutely sod all you can do about any of it, here’s my tuppence for the question you actually asked.

I really don’t think you should leave your daughter behind. I don’t think you should even let on that that’s something you’ve considered. For her to feel any sense of security in the family, her being involved needs to always be the default, and never threatened with being taken away. As wonderful as it would be to have the conversation many are suggesting about setting boundaries in the run up, she will feel like she’s constantly being tested, and like the holiday is being held over her head in a way that it isn’t for the other children. You’re also setting yourself up to have to see it through with cutting her out if she “fails” at any point, in which case you’re screwed.

Instead, set consequences for her behaviour on the trip you’ve just had (reduction in allowance for a month, babysitting duty one afternoon, something like that) but don’t let the consequence be something that makes her feel even more excluded. The next holiday is a completely new one, and if she behaves badly on that one then again she will have more consequences like the ones she had this time. But cutting her out is not an option.

In the meantime, get her to help you plan the holiday. Get her input on what she would like to do, and crucially, what she thinks the rest of the family might enjoy. Maybe ask her to plan something for everyone to do. If she’s involved in the planning, she’s invested in it going well.

Good luck, OP!

At 17 I was a horror on holiday with my parents too. But I really think if you do this it will be a line crossed forever. I don't see how it will be anything but the final cord cut.

@Mama1209

Could you afford to set aside money so your DD can holiday with friends?

Take her, you’ll feel horrible and she’ll feel alienated if you don’t. And those feelings will be remembered for a long time. 17yewr olds can be hideous at times but please do stick with her x

Is there any chance that you could go away with her, on her own, for an age appropriate break, rather than the family holiday? We used to do this with all our children and it worked really well.

No way would I leave her behind.
However hard you may find it you need to learn to summon more patience the more awful she is. The shouting and abusive language she throws at you is akin to a toddler. Every time she has a strop because she doesn't get her own way, let her do her worst, then go back to treating her with love and kindness. She needs to feel loved at her worst.

I would explain to her that due to her behaviour on the weekend away, you have decided a week long holiday abroad is not a good idea as she clearly did not enjoy the previous holiday.

I'd then say instead, the two of you will have a nice day out doing ?????? (something she likes) which you have no doubt she will clearly enjoy far more.

Ohhh this is hard and definately hard for you . So you have 3 choices
book her to come and hope for the best
don’t book her on the holiday
arrange to meet her and basically lay down the law if she repeats her behaviour you don’t want her to come if she can behave she’s welcome
tbh it sounds like she target bully’s you and you absolutely do not deserve that
beat of luck

Sounds as though some joint/family therapy might be worth trying to work through her anger and frustration. She is clearly hurting and it is coming out in the worst ways.
Maybe even some individual counselling for you to help deal with the struggles....
She may or may not be able to go on holiday with you - for a multitude of reasons - don't worry about that for the moment......
Good luck

At 17 if my child spoke this way to me I'd hand over a tenner and tell them to make their own way home. Tolerating such a level of disrespect is a clear indicator that such behaviour is allowed. If you don't put your foot down and do it every time she will walk all over you.
If she is potentially neurodiverse or has behavioural issues I suggest counselling. It's likely she will start to mature a bit more over the next few years but don't tolerate any behaviour you think is unreasonable. 17 is old enough to start to be accountable, if she wouldn't shout the same at a stranger she's taking advantage of your relationship to act poorly. Best of luck with the holiday, I'd let her decided whether she wants to come on the provisio that if she acts poorly it will be the last time for her family's sake.

By engaging her brain and having a bit of common sense around how trauma impacts children at various ages

and of course existing children should determine whole families futures. How shit a parent must you be to think otherwise

Have you heard of ACES before @Mama1209 ?

I'm only asking because your daughter had had a fair few of these during her life (I've bolded the ones you've mentioned in your post)

Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) are stressful events occurring in childhood including

domestic violence

parental abandonment through separation or divorce

a parent with a mental health condition

being the victim of abuse (physical, sexual and/or emotional)

being the victim of neglect (physical and emotional)

a member of the household being in prison

growing up in a household in which there are adults experiencing alcohol and drug use problems.

When children are exposed to adverse and stressful experiences, it can have a long-lasting impact on their ability to think, interact with others and on their learning.

Your poor daughter has gone through a huge amount of trauma in her life. Her way of communicating with you "when she doesn't get her own way" is a direct result of her childhood.

Bring her on holiday, don't push her away even further. If she spoils it by being moody, she spoils it by being moody.

I think its important for her to know you love her unconditionally and that her inclusion in your new family isn't dependent on her being "good".

OP I have voted YANBU, I think everyone would have an awful holiday if DD comes with you.

YABU to put this in AIBU, please get MNHQ to move this to the Teenagers section or Relationships as I honestly think you would get more helpful and empathetic replies there 💐

Honestly I wouldn't take her on a separate weekend away just the two of you and not on the family holiday. You'll just reinforce her view that she isn't part of the family. But she does need to know actions have consequences and her behaviour won't be tolerated.

Fwiw I stopped going on holiday with my parents at 16. I was asked I said I'd rather stay at home.

Pfft. In your world, sure. In mine, we all take our teen and young adult children on holiday with us.

Within my friends and my family that's normal - we like spending time as a family.

They also go away with their friends (on much cheaper trips except for inter railing) and we take a few days away as a couple sometimes.

She’s a teen. Teens can be notoriously difficult and awful. My teen dd was a nightmare, but now a few years later, totally different. So hang on in there. I don’t know how easy it would be for you to get a weekend away, just the two of you - shopping trip or spa. That way you could say to her you won’t be taking her away on the bigger family holiday, as you would prefer to have a small trip away just the two of you. It would be a great way to talk, just one on one, and try to get her to open up to you. You could make this a twice yearly thing. Teens push you away, but often all they want is a big hug and a sign that you’re listening to them.

How was she supposed to know that her DD would continue to struggle though?

Its quite normal for teenagers to be a bit upset about further pregnancies. Mostly they come around to the idea. Luckily most people understand that rather then making a serious decision around a termination.

I wonder how many people on MN would have been telling OP not to terminate and let a teenager determine the whole families futures?

I think you should tell her that unless you get a sincere apology for swearing at you, she's not coming on the holiday.

She chose to live there and often chooses to come back when she falls out with her grand parents

You LET your 14 year old move out and live with other family members.

That's unforgivable op. No wonder she's messed up. She must feel totally pushed out and unwanted.

I have a 14 year old and hell would freeze over before I allowed him to go live elsewhere because WE are his immediate family and not the grandparents or anyone else. Which is what I'd be telling him if he came to me with his 'choice' of moving out at 14!

No yanbu. At 17 if she can't be trusted not to kick off and spoil it for everyone else then she doesn't come.