To exclude one child from family holiday

Gunkle1 Not all bad behaviour is actually bad behaviour

Bad behaviour is a way of expressing that things are not right

Bad behaviour can be a cry for help

Bad behaviour can be a way of expressing disappointment in those around them

Just disciplining without understanding the why the need for the bad behaviour is going to do more harm than good.

Actually the trolls who post on mumsnet are more likely to be teenagers than fat old men. You lost my sympathy with that comment.

There's a lot of background information coming out here, O/P.

I've been in your daughters position with the anger, from around the age 14 onwards when my Mum met my step-dad, but they never had any children together.

I was really angry and jealous about this relationship. I never knew my real Dad. Unfortunately, you're her nearest and dearest which means you're the one she is going to lash out at and hurt. It's not condoning it, but it's clarity on why she is doing it.

Her dad was abusive to her Mum
He went to prison
Mum met someone else
Mum had another baby
Dad died

That's been your eldest daughter's life. She shouldn't have had to go through any of that. She's still a teenager processing a lot of traumatic and confusing feelings. She's probably feeling rock-bottom and needs anger management lessons, and coping mechanisms. At the same time (I'm a counsellor) - I'm not making any diagnosis - It sounds like she needs to be assessed for cognitive disabilities and mental health illness. Aggression can be BPD, Bi-polar, schizophrenia, Autsim/Aspergers, Anxiety, Stress, OCD. A combination of many things.

When I was her age, I would also call my Mother many awful things, but my parents were also abusive toward me when dynamics changed.

I know it's easy to say, 'Don't award her bad behaviour with a holiday', but it's not really bad behaviour - It's mental health issues manifesting in lashing out. She's hopefully not taking any drugs (weed can also cause aggression in some people), she's not stealing, being physically violent, not damaging anything? It's just the verbal abuse?

Take her on holiday and every time she lashes our, pull her into a tight hug and tell her you love her. Keep doing it. Fight for her because she needs someone to fight for her, to hold her up while she self-destructs. It's going to be hard work and you're going to want to snap at her, but don't. Stay calm, be Mum. Fight for her.

How will she “not succeed”? Succeed at what?

believe me, strict discipline is not the way to manage a bereaved teen. The behaviour is expressing her feelings- bottom line is see how badly I can act, then you’ll leave me/reject me too.

teens don’t have the words or emotional maturity to voice their feelings. It comes out as actions.

i’m 50 now and it’s only relatively recently I can see that all my shitty teen behaviour, every time an adult disapproved of something, was seen as rejection, and was a result of my grief.

grief I was told I should be over because kids are resilient, they get over things. So I just thought I was a horrible kid that nobody liked.

stopping the behaviour with discipline just meant I stopped engaging completely. That led to “failure” as teachers, no one could get through to me.

You miss the point. I was talking about regular one to one time not one off holidays or trips or one off 1-1 times. Something mundane and regular such as every other Saturday you go to the local mall, wander round the shops and have lunch. Or Sundays you go for a walk for a couple of hours and sit and talk at a regular spot and have a packed lunch. As well as her interacting in the mundanity of family life like eating dinner together even a few times each week
One off holidays to Disney or trips away are not where you are going to get those conversations that would head off this type of behaviour. Phone calls to talk about the recent trip don’t count as they are a reaction not an action

She has had a lot of trauma in her life. She is not just being naughty.

Exactly, she is 17 not 7. I am not saying she should be excluded from the family but should be impacted about her behaviour.

Behaviour like this needs to be stopped before adulthood or she will not succeed. Then the family and her will be blamed for her behaviour of she acted this way in society.

@Gunkle1 FFS she is 17 years old!!
Your reaction is so harsh.

Also you will find lots of people trying to be armchair psychologists who don't have the full background but feel the need to spout lots of judgemental statements. Take what has been said and have a think about it all. How you feel when reading the feedback, does it align with the truth and also what you really want as an outcome. And use that as your decision maker.

But don't feel pressured into doing something detrimental to everyone's else feelings, experiences or opportunities. One person can't be expected to rule everyone's experiences and feelings.

Sometime we have to be cruel to be kind. People who behave like this need to be made aware of the consequences of their actions, and sometimes that is missing out on the nice things.

She may have an underlying cause but most of the time people are able to hold their behaviours when required, and if not then natural consequences is people don't want to be around them and ruin their time. You tried to take her away for weekend and has showed she can't control herself therefore she is not able to join the next one.

Sounds like you are doing as much as you possibly can, I really wish the best.
Perhaps as suggested enforce a mutual hobby together as that could really help you heal just by experiencing something uniquely for only the two of you so you have something that is consistently shared. And doesn’t risk excluding the siblings if you choose a grown up hobby that is too old for them to join. Perhaps if you enjoy it could become a family thing in the future when she is older and emotions have all regulated.

@PenguinLord I question how often that happened. A mum with a four children who include a baby/toddler and a14 plus teenager who lives with her grandparents is not going to have much space to spend 1-1 time with any teenager.

Am I getting a bit confused with the time line.

You married first husband and had your dd

Then he went to jail and died by the time she was 3-4 years old.

By the time she was 5 years old you had met, married and given birth to her step brother

She starts to stay over with grandparents at weekends. Presumably during the week she was in school and there was a set routine that meant there wasn’t really any days out or prolonged family time where she spent time with both you her step father and step brother

Why did you not insist that she spent the majority of weekends with you as part of her family

Then you get pregnant again when she is 14 years old.
At that point she moved permanently in with her gps
Presumably Covid stopped you going away in those few years

And then you decide to go on a family weekend away. Without having resolved the reasoning behind why she has replaced you with the gps.

Sorry if I missed it but were these gps, your dm and df. Or were these gps who raised your abusive exh.

Have you ever spent regular time with her, just her and you going to places where you can talk and find out about each other’s lives, hopes and dreams.

I think having a successful relationship with your children as they get into teens and adulthood involves you having regular time with them on a one to one basis to really get to know them. Sometimes children say or do things that are really cries for attention and all the one on one times you put in are there for you to recognise when things aren’t going right for them and they aren’t able to find the words for the feelings and situations that are overwhelming them.

Yeah you are right, I've seen now that op has said about that further up thread. But I still feel that her dds behaviour is to do with getting attention/feeling important and I think exclusion wouldn't help matters. I think I'd still take her along even if you know she may be tricky.

OP has already done a lot of that.

I personally think she needs more attention from you not less. If she's bereaved she may be struggling internally and possibly she needs to feel like she matters to you. her lashing out when she doesn't get her own way could be her almost testing that you still love her unconditionally. Maybe try to spend some one on one time with her and see how that goes.

I wouldn’t have tolerated that! I’d have told her there and then that she’d lost her place on the family holiday in the summer and driven off and left her there!! (Assuming you were trying to get her in the car at the place you were renting?)… but no she wouldn’t come on holiday with me again till she’d learnt some manners!

There have been an awful lot of harsh and condemnatory comments aimed at the poor OP on this thread probably from perfect parents who never make any mistakes🙄
14-17 are awful ages for many teenage girl parents, my own were bloody awful! I can absolutely see how the eldest daughter has moved in with grandparents and at the same time while I can see and hear the heart break from the OP I can also see a young girl who is in a mess with her mental health.
I heard that you have accessed counselling for her but I wonder if it was long enough or specific enough and maybe some family therapy might help?
You said that you had already met your new partner and had children by the time her father died, but I am guessing this didn't make it any less that she felt replaced. From her perspective her parents separated (DV brings its own trauma to children) you met a new partner (absolutely your right) so then she felt pushed out and new siblings compounded the feeling of being ousted and replaced. I fully get that you have tried all you can think of to reassure her but it sounds like she still harbours anger and insecurity. Not including her in a holiday will confirm to her that she is the difficult child and make her feel further alienated. I can also see that you need to protect the wellbeing of her younger siblings and that being exposed to anger and swearing will be distressing for them. I wonder if a big family holiday with all its heightened expectations, new unfamiliar environment and language issues of a foreign country is such a great idea? Could you maybe start a bit smaller with a UK break (that doesn't involve other friends) and concentrating on just building family bonding then work outwards to a bigger event? It sounds like the weekend ended badly because of expectations of behaviour and her being over whelmed I also wonder if the friends were other parents with younger children rather than those with teenagers so she felt further “othered”?

I'm sorry to hear this. It's an uphill battle unless you are a very severe case. They are extremely underfunded.
If it is high-functioning autism you are pretty much left to your own devices.
If you do feel like this could be the case there are Facebook pages you can join where parents share their experiences and help each other out. I've found these very useful.
A self-funded assessment costs in the region of 2-3k so relatively prohibitive.
Try looking into specific types of therapy that may help and look into pushing to get them on the NHS or self-fund them if you can. Plenty out there on the net but it's a shame there isn't any more funding.

You said her creaming at you was because she said you always take your sons side. Is there any truth to this?