To think Black Out nights in theatre ARE important

@Ramalangadingdong ,

‘By the way white audiences are not banned on blackout nights, it is simply requested that they purchase tickets for another night. No one’s going to turn them away or be nasty to them if they choose to attend.’

I have made this point several times. They CANNOT legally be banned, this is as close as the theatre can get to banning them without breaking the law (although I wonder how it would hold up if tested in court). And as for your last part, I wonder how white people would enjoy the ‘Black Gaze’ on those nights. (I can’t bring myself to be as offensive as you and pretend being looked at by another skin colour is ‘toxic’).

After reading about the scale of harmful racist comments meted out to a young black performer who is about to play Juliet in Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet opposite Tom Holland, I imagine that many black performers might also welcome a night or two in front of an all-black audience away from the toxic white gaze.

By the way white audiences are not banned on blackout nights, it is simply requested that they purchase tickets for another night. No one’s going to turn them away or be nasty to them if they choose to attend.

I do think there is a conversation to be had about how far a society has to go in accommodating different cultures and how far immigrants (of whatever generation) need to go to integrate into the society where they have chosen to live.

My parents immigrated into the UK from Africa (their parents from a mixture of UK and Eastern Europe). They were determined to bring us up British, hardly even spoke about us being Jewish (no one was religious after my grandparents’ generation). We did have plenty of Jewish friends, though.

Maybe this was too far, as discovering my roots and ancestry has been interesting and makes me a more rounded and interesting person.

But, I would never forget the gratitude I have to the free and open society which welcomed my parents (despite the occasional racism I have been subject to). I would never expected to be given special treatment due to being Jewish, being treated the same works well for me.

But I do think a black out night in a white Christian country is quite strange! Outside of white Christianity, I don’t see other countries so apologetic and obsequious about their history, though most cultures have been racist throughout most of history.

Why is it that the most tolerant cultures should be the most apologetic. It is almost as if tolerance is mistaken for weakness…..

Yes, I have read lots about ‘equity’ vs ‘equality’ and hierarchy of privilege. I understand it, I just don’t agree with it. Give me plain old fashioned equality any day of the week.

It's the idea of perceived whiteness. We have moved away from skin tone to something a lot more nebulous and subjective. Perceived whiteness depends on the perceive r and so the amount of white privilege one may have could vary depending on who was doing the preceiving

Again when perceived to be white I think you mean a certain kind of white. The white from western Europe (mainly northern countries) as you could say Eastern Europeans can't use white privilege to an advantage. Sure they find bandages of their skin tone but the discrimination they feel is very real and washes out the concept of white privilege they are meant to be aware of.

@mids2019 you use a lot of words and links and whatnot to try and prove some sort of weird point that white privilege isn't a thing, when it has been proven time and time and time again that it really is.

Nobody needs to narrow down the category of white, or look at your stupid links to pop stars.

The simple fact is that if you are perceived to be white then you have white privilege.

It doesn't mean that all white people are living in mansions and all non white people are on the streets, it means that non white people have an additional barrier in their lives due to the colour of their skin.

It doesn't mean that's the only barrier either.

I am disabled, that is another barrier, sometimes my disability creates a barrier to things that able bodied people don't have to think about, that means that able bodied people have a privilege that I don't.

Sometimes me not being white creates an extra barrier to things that a white person wouldn't have to think about, that means the white person has a privilege that I don't.

One of my dc is gay, sometimes her being gay brings an extra layer of complication into a situation that a straight person wouldn't have to think about, that means that straight people have a privilege that gay people don't.

You know exactly what everyone means, and you're tying yourself up in knots trying to get exact explanations of this that and the next thing, when it boils down to perception, and you know it.

I really don't know why you're arguing so hard to deny a point that has been proven over and over again.

@60sbird

On the balance of probability you are white and conversely on the balance of probability you are black.

????

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eye

It is self apparent what colour someone is using skin tone as detected by sight. White and black are colours. If you start to have artbitary boundaries where whiteness (as a colour) is not the founding factor in who is white then you are giving the term white privilege to whoever you feel is deserving of that privilege and who is the arbiter?

presume

verb
past tense: presumed; past participle: presumed

1. 1.
2. suppose that something is the case on the basis of probability.
3. "I presumed that the man had been escorted from the building"

Let me ask you something: are you planning to go and see this play?

Go on then, go and sit there and tell us how you feel.

PressureLikeATickTickTick · 06/04/2024 13:41
No it's divisive and unnecessary.

A white person sat in an audience isn't going to detract from a good play.

We, as white people in 2024, are not guilty of slavery crimes. We are not responsible for the things people who existed before we were even born did.

It's segregation, pure and simple.

This

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not making any assumptions about anything. I'm merely saying that, if some black people would like to watch a play about slavery in a predominantly black audience, I respect their wishes and I don't feel that this is in any way discriminatory towards me as a white person.

It isn't about treating everyone the same. It is about treating everyone equitably

Someone upthread noted the lack of black audience members? Could it be that they just don’t find theatre relevant? That they are not interested?

Some people DO treat the disparity as proof of some sort of bias or discrimination and it’s just very tiresome. It is YOU holding your culture as universal or that there’s something wrong if it is not to literally everyone’s taste.

I understand this is a marketing tactic to outreach to the black community. It is probably as harmless as a ‘Ladies night’ tbh but the discourse around it is just insane

@Lion400

no sorry

@InTheShallowTheShalalalalalalalow

maybe it's just me but what does presumed white mean? I think you can observe a skin colour without recourse to presumption.

I think to think we have a system that entrenches white privilege doesn't help focus on individual cases of racism but makes those that perceive them selves as white as somehow part of a systemic problem which isn't the case. Systemic seems to suggest policy that actively discriminates and there is no such policy in any major instituti on. It is better to combat a culture through reducing discrimination or actively penalizing it rather than have the construct of white privilege that results in division.

This is so bloody tiresome.

If pp can't understand that if someone is observed or presumed to be white then those are the ones who will benefit from white privilege.

Writing 87 paragraphs and linking to a pop stars wiki page is honestly ridiculous.

systemic

adjective

1. 1.
2. relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.
3. "the disease is localized rather than systemic"

You have misunderstood. It is not about outcomes.

There will always be individual differences but there should be genuine equality of opportunity.

It isn't about treating everyone the same. It is about treating everyone equitably.

Equality isn't treating everyone the same. Its about leveling the playing field so people have the same chances, the same education and the same rights. There is privilege in our society just from being white or even more white and male

Equality is never gonna happen. Because nature itself is not equal and doesn’t make people equal. Even children from the same family are not equal. You are supposed to treat them equally, yes. But you cannot expect equal outcomes from equal treatment.

God forbid should anyone have an opinion in 2024.

🙄

Lol.

I have never heard this saying. It hits the nail on the head.

I would like to see more white people stepping up as allies by supporting the blackout night and stop thinking for once that it’s all about them.

What’s the quote? “When you have privilege, equality feels like oppression”.

ain’t that the truth!

///

Absolutely. Us poor white people. Being asked to leave a few performances to black people. They are probably going to talk about us and everything. Bloody racists.

? Are you talking to me?

@Lion400

You have narrowed the definition of white to Anglo Saxon heritage. It makes 'white privilge' seem like simplistic sloganeering.

So by white you mean a subsection of white. Also a lot of Dutch people aren't necessarily of Anglo Saxon heritage yet they certainly enjoyed a privileged position in South Africa. If we bore down into what is meant by white you see that it is a specific sub section of that "race" (if you can define a white race) and that sub section probably corresponds to a demographic that holds privilege independent of skin colour.

Sonia white privilege only present in some countries and if so which ones?