To think Black Out nights in theatre ARE important

I have a colleague and good friend who is black Jamaican, a school teacher who arrived here in the late 60's and was the first black person in town.

When we were chatting recently he told me of his experience, of being a bit of an oddity and as he put it "local attraction" through acceptance and eventually huge respect in the community.

He is horrified by black this, black that, he says he doesn't want to be defined by the colour of his skin, but by who HE is - and he feels a "new tribalisation" risks undoing the integration that was so hard won.

As to the slave trade, he's a proud Jamaican (and teacher of history) and points out to his students that had it not been for the slave traders (many who were indeed black africans rounding up other tribes to sell on) then his family would never have ended up in Jamaica, history shapes our destiny - even the bad bits.

I'm sorry your ancestors were persecuted so horribly. Its not a zero sum game though. Recognising different privileges and forms of discrimination doesn't take away your experience.

You’re missing the point, it’s not my experience.

I’m not oppressed today because something happened to my family 80 years ago.

And no need to be patronising, I’ve read ‘a book’.

@valensiwalensi ,

‘Black people aren’t here to do your legwork for you.’

It is hard to have a proper discussion with someone so sure of themselves, and this is a discussion forum.

I do plenty of my own legwork, thanks, and most of it shows that, according to evidence and facts, you are wrong.

‘But I will spell it out for you - trying to say that a black person with wealth is an exempt from both generational trauma or everyday discrimination is offensive.’

Generational trauma is epigenetics and is quite controversial. It is hard going from a study from mice (sweet smell and shocking them when they eat) to inferring that humans suffer from events generations later. Even in the mice study, the third generation was sensitised but not traumatised by the sweet smell, more curious,

Most wealthy blacks just aren’t subject to everyday discrimination. I am not saying it never happens, but it is rare. The way they dress and their accent gives them acceptance.

Same. Though the main thing that keeps me away from theatre is eye watering prices.

Black people aren’t here to do your legwork for you.
But I will spell it out for you - trying to say that a black person with wealth is an exempt from both generational trauma or everyday discrimination is offensive.

@valensiwalensi ,

Respectfully, if you want to challenge an argument, use facts and logic rather than calling me ‘offensive’. Otherwise it is like a conversation with a not particularly bright 10 year old.

Okay, fine re the point about white people being slaves. But racism is still happening to black people and other races. You often hear about the police targeting black people or people attacking Muslims or Jewish people- how often do you hear about people attacking people because they’re white? Yes, white people have been slaves and that’s awful but they’re not being targeted now, other races most certainly are. So if black people think this is a good idea then I’m all for it.

No. Its not weird that I don't choose to summarise an entire socio political concept, with data, here, for you. You have the Internet and access to libraries. Read a book.

Lots of people have pointed out the (wilful?) failure to understand what white privilege actually is, so I'll not bother to repeat them. I suspect you'd be closed to hearing it anyway.

I don't have the view you seem to have decided I have. I'm not on a quest to reduce all experiences of disadvantage to race. I've literally stated this, numerous times.

I understand class privilege also. In fact, recognising and addressing it is a significant part of my professional work. I also understand how race and class intersect (there's that word again!) and produce nuance.

I'm sorry your ancestors were persecuted so horribly. Its not a zero sum game though. Recognising different privileges and forms of discrimination doesn't take away your experience. Maybe be an ally to other people who've experienced persecution and discrimination, albeit for for different reasons, and stand in solidarity with them? Rather than use your energy to be so annoyed that white privilege doesn't centre your own experience? That would be powerful.

answer the question.

But ask yourself one question, would you rather black or white in British society today? If the idea of being black makes you slightly uncomfortable (police interactions, maybe having a foreign-sounding name on your CV etc), there’s your white privilege.

Are you saying white people can't have foreign sounding names? Or that black people cant have British sounding names?

respectfully you have no clue what you are talking about to the point of being offensive

White privilege does exist, although I hate the term. There is no question that in certain areas, such as how you are treated by police, walking shabbily dressed into an expensive shop etc whites like me get a free pass.

However, it is one of many ‘privileges’ and nowhere near the most important. The primary and overriding privilege in today’s society is wealth. If you are black, have been to a private school and live in a £5 million house in Chelsea, your ethnicity won’t be a hindrance to anything.

I do think intersectionality works both ways and middle class wealthy blacks face virtually no discrimination in the uk today, in fact sometimes the reverse. If you are a black girl applying to read engineering at a top university, even from a private school, you will likely receive a ‘contextual’ offer lower than a white male.

And it is here that these black out evenings err. The reason fewer blacks go to the theatre in London than 13.5% is primarily due to wealth and ‘class’, not ethnicity. It is hard to find data but I strongly suspect that the same proportion of wealthy graduates like theatre from all ethnicities,

If the black out nights persuaded black people who would not normally attend theatre to go by offering free or heavily discounted tickets, and were marketed outside the normal channels, I would get onside. But, as far as I know they aren’t. They will be attended by the same wealthy privileged people who normally attend. These people are not in any sense suffering generational trauma and have no need to be protected in a safe space from the white people they share their wealth ‘privilege’ with.

Ok. There are so many posts up thread explaining white privilege and you still don’t understand what it means. Me explaining again isn’t going to help.

But ask yourself one question, would you rather black or white in British society today? If the idea of being black makes you slightly uncomfortable (police interactions, maybe having a foreign-sounding name on your CV etc), there’s your white privilege.

there have been several really simple explanations of white privilege is on the thread…. Scroll up.

Yet using "white privilege" as an all encompassing term does not help anyone's cause.
Not all white people are as privileged as others, that is why when you use it as a hammer to beat people with you get push back.

Class divide doesn’t mean white privilege doesn’t exist.

I think that privilege is more about class and money than the colour of anyone's skin. I think that as a society we should be aiming for inclusivity rather than trying to create demarcation based on the skin tones. It feels like a retrograde step. We need excellent state schools that create an environment where all children can thrive. That would be a start for improving life chances for all.

Exactly this.

when I go for a job interview I have never once worried that my skin colour is going to be an issue.
have I worried that I will be judged because of my size? Or my working class accent? Yes.

I am not free from discrimination because I am a white woman but my skin colour has never put me at a disadvantage.

To add, I don't think anyone is suggesting that racism is the only kind of disadvantage that people face. Quite the contrary, in fact. That's why the whole concept of intersectionality has become so important these days. Many people face layer on layer of different disadvantages.

I think the word "privilege" confuses people, because many white people feel anything but privileged. They may be struggle with issues such as class prejudice, grinding poverty, disability etc.

Nobody is arguing that, for example, a white working class single mum with a debilitating long term health condition that renders her unable to work is leading a "privileged" life. Of course she isn't, she is facing multiple disadvantages.

They are just saying that a black, working class single mum with the same debilitating long term health condition has to deal with an extra disadvantage on top of all of the others.

A black middle class doctor or lawyer, or similar, is clearly way more privileged in numerous ways than our disabled white working class mum who is living in poverty. Nobody would argue against that. But the black middle class doctor or lawyer may still encounter racism in a way that a white middle class doctor or lawyer does not.

White privilege doesn't mean that all white people are living privileged lives. It simply means that white people rarely have to think about the issue of race because it does not impact on their lives in the way that it typically does for people of other ethnicities. And yes, the absence of discrimination is a pretty low bar and I get why it seems ridiculous to describe that as "privilege" - it should be the bare minimum. But the fact is, not having to face that discrimination does give white people an advantage that POC do not have.

I think people get confused because of the word “Privilege”. It just means your skin colour isn’t a barrier for you. I’m not sure why people seem to take issue with that?

@Lion400

No, it's interesting isn't it.

@valensiwalensi

I believe racism exists but a whole population can't be labelled as racist or having to apologise for racists. White privilege seems to be a label white people have to be aware of in their day to day existence when at its core the aim should be to reduce racism and target racists.

I can see how changing th culture of the met police force for example is a positive thing but I don't think it helps having a privilege that white people themselves often don't feel they have.It seems to suggest white people's lives are profoundly better by not having to face racism but Indont think the absence of discrimination equates to peivilege.

It doesn’t minimise other forms of discrimination at ALL. I mean, as this thread shows, most white peoppe refuse to acknowledge it exists in the first place…

So if white privilege is privilege based on the absence of discrimination based on skin colour then that his not so much a privilege but a reduced chance of being at the defining end of racism. I think this minimises the other forms of discrimination many white people face due to class, disability and gender for example.

By that analogy I have able bodied privilege and some would have male privilege but would people of colour be offended if we pointed out the non skin colour privileges they had? A black able bodied man may carry privileges that offset so called white privilege.

As pointed out we may have differing kinds of privilege so why not reduce the argument down to privilege in general and concentrate on reducing racism and discrimination instead of giving one vaguely defined section of the population a privilege we don't recognise?