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Original poster

to think that this is a really weird premise for a novel? (Lionel Shriver)

115 replies

stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 13:06

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mania-lionel-shriver-review-kd35wrtn5

I think that Lionel Shriver used to write really interesting and thoughtful novels, but that her involvement in 'culture war' stuff has made her a bit myopic and odd. The premise of this novel is that there is a world where it's considered 'discriminatory' to call people stupid, or to say that some people are more intellectually gifted than others, and she claims that this is "a millimetre" away from where we are now. I certainly think that some elements of cultural life are becoming a bit more low-brow, but it seems soooooo overblown and hysterical to pretend that we have a culture that valorises stupidity.

I am just a bit suspicious of people who honk on about other people being inherently more gifted than others, and how this is a special and important distinction. I sometimes think this sort of thing is borderline eugenics-y.

Interested to hear what others think!

Mania by Lionel Shriver review — equal rights for stupid people!

A cancelled college teacher battles the anti-thought police in this viciously funny satirical novel

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mania-lionel-shriver-review-kd35wrtn5

OP posts:
YankSplaining · 06/04/2024 15:05

I don’t think it’s even a remotely weird premise for a novel. Sounds like fairly basic dystopian fiction. I think you don’t like her and rather than just leave it at that, you want to act like she’s doing something completely bizarre or abnormal because “weird” is more stigmatizing than “wrong.”

YaMuvva · 06/04/2024 15:03

I’ve just seen on Wikipedia (I know I know) that she opposes gender theory. This makes sense - she changed her name to a masculine one because she felt like a Tom boy but has NEVER claimed she’s a man. Seems fair and reasonable.

Original poster
stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 15:02

Good review for anyone interested in the Irish Times - accessed via the archive function (thank you to the poster who flagged the archiving service!) https://archive.is/yvVLt

OP posts:
YaMuvva · 06/04/2024 15:01

Why is she a violent bigot? Google is being useless

Circe7 · 06/04/2024 15:00

stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 14:37

@Geebray for the reasons I have addressed on this thread. I also think the premise is histrionic and overblown. There is no great conspiracy against the mentally able (apart from maybe in some state schools, where know-it-alls are inevitably bullied!)

The Handmaiden’s Tale is also overblown in that women aren’t literally forced into bearing important men’s children by the state. Exaggeration is inherent in dystopian fiction.

But I suspect it’s about more than intellect / stupidity and also about cancel culture and what happens when you deny a biological reality and restrictions on free speech and the impact of expanding the reach of discrimination law etc.. They’re interesting topics even if you disagree with her.

The impact of nature / nurture on intelligence is also an interesting debate. It sounds like you’re on the nurture side which is fine. But if you only expose yourself to that view it cements your opinion and you don’t gain much.

I also think the question “are we in an anti-intellectual society “ is interesting and not completely unreasonable given the influence of social media etc.

User478 · 06/04/2024 14:58

YaMuvva · 06/04/2024 14:21

Ooh I like the sound of this. I once picked up an obscure Lionel Shriver book in a shop in Spain when on holiday about a man losing weight and it was AMAZING the twist floored me. I could barely sleep after reading Kevin. I have a hard time believing she’d write anything terrible

I read this on a plane, the twist made me furious and I'd never bother reading a LS book again!

(Possibly because I'd also just finished The Secret of Crickey Hall and it was fucking ghosts all along - if it wasn't an audiobook I'd have thrown it out the window)

ILoveYourLittleHat · 06/04/2024 14:53

Sitcom 30 Rock did this storyline years ago!

DeanElderberry · 06/04/2024 14:51

I used to loathe Margaret Ann Shriver when she was an apologist for Loyalists (not just Unionists) on the RTE mid day weekend radio discussion shows long ago (1990s probably), and have never felt inclined to read a book by someone so bigoted and inherently violent just because of a name change.

So cannot offer an opinion on this or any other book, but do offer my take on the woman.

Geebray · 06/04/2024 14:43

stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 14:17

@Circe7 I don't think it's offensive to talk about the fact that some people ate more gifted in some respects than others. But I think that it's very overblown to suggest that we're in a climate where it's forbidden to do so. I am also suspicious of people who set high stock in the idea of inherent genius or gifts. It seems a good way of eliding the fact that a really good education (and many in the UK simply can't afford that - schools in crisis etc) coupled with routine and good nutrition will knock 'natural gifts' out of the park nine times out of ten. A lot of poor educational outcomes in the UK are pretty structural - bad schools, etc. Focussing on 'natural gifts' moves the focus away from that. It lets those who have done well crow at others who haven't, potentially for structural reasons. FWIW I went to a good state school and have done very well for myself - and I attribute that more to circumstance than genes.

Big Brother was based on Shriver's brother. They had a similar upbringing, same circumstances.

Geebray · 06/04/2024 14:41

But it's satire. Not a "state of the nation" novel.

You take one thing, and turn it into another.

Original poster
stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 14:37

@Geebray for the reasons I have addressed on this thread. I also think the premise is histrionic and overblown. There is no great conspiracy against the mentally able (apart from maybe in some state schools, where know-it-alls are inevitably bullied!)

OP posts:
Geebray · 06/04/2024 14:33

stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 14:26

@YaMuvva 'Big Brother' - I enjoyed that one too. My dad and I used to love reading and discussing her novels when I was a teenager. But I think the conceit behind this one is so ugly.

Just to say I am really enjoying all the comments on this thread and they are stopping me from studying !! Threads like this make me wish I could meet other MNers in real life :)

How is the premise "ugly"?

If it's making you uncomfortable, maybe she has a point?

(I have read Kevin, the ending of which really irritated me, and Big Brother.)

cassandre · 06/04/2024 14:29

She's right-wing and xenophobic and I don't bother reading anything she's written now. A shame.

The sheer irony of the fact that she's anti-immigration when she herself is an immigrant to the UK. But because she's white, she doesn't count. She can help to uphold great Western values.

Ugh. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Original poster
stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 14:26

@YaMuvva 'Big Brother' - I enjoyed that one too. My dad and I used to love reading and discussing her novels when I was a teenager. But I think the conceit behind this one is so ugly.

Just to say I am really enjoying all the comments on this thread and they are stopping me from studying !! Threads like this make me wish I could meet other MNers in real life :)

OP posts:
YaMuvva · 06/04/2024 14:26

She’s become the Katie Hopkins of literature.

Ooh I didn’t know this - what’s she done?

Geebray · 06/04/2024 14:25

Satire has to exaggerate, whilst also being believable.

I will read it, she's a great author.

luckylavender · 06/04/2024 14:25

FloatyBoaty · 06/04/2024 13:31

She’s become the Katie Hopkins of literature.

We Need To Talk About Kevin was smart and chilling.

I have no time for her these days.

My thoughts exactly. She's written some good stuff but she has very odd views now.

YaMuvva · 06/04/2024 14:21

Ooh I like the sound of this. I once picked up an obscure Lionel Shriver book in a shop in Spain when on holiday about a man losing weight and it was AMAZING the twist floored me. I could barely sleep after reading Kevin. I have a hard time believing she’d write anything terrible

Katjeopdemat · 06/04/2024 14:19

So fun to see that quite a few posts above demonstrate how pertinent the premise of this book is @stressedout1994

Original poster
stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 14:18

Noooo @DoreenonTill8 but if I had to hang out with Toby Young et al I would stick a fork in my arm x

OP posts:
Original poster
stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 14:17

@Circe7 I don't think it's offensive to talk about the fact that some people ate more gifted in some respects than others. But I think that it's very overblown to suggest that we're in a climate where it's forbidden to do so. I am also suspicious of people who set high stock in the idea of inherent genius or gifts. It seems a good way of eliding the fact that a really good education (and many in the UK simply can't afford that - schools in crisis etc) coupled with routine and good nutrition will knock 'natural gifts' out of the park nine times out of ten. A lot of poor educational outcomes in the UK are pretty structural - bad schools, etc. Focussing on 'natural gifts' moves the focus away from that. It lets those who have done well crow at others who haven't, potentially for structural reasons. FWIW I went to a good state school and have done very well for myself - and I attribute that more to circumstance than genes.

OP posts:
DoreenonTill8 · 06/04/2024 14:16

stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 14:12

@Abhannmor that's exactly how I feel! I think that a lot of the people who are preoccupied by natural / genetic intelligence secretly (or not very secretly) harbour the conviction that they are the gleaming ubermensch, being 'cancelled' or upbraided by us mewling, envious untermensch. Where has your genius got you, Lionel! You have to keep company with the free speech nutters ! Not very edifying or fun !

So as a self proclaimed 'free speech nutter' you want her to stop having free speech?

Abitofalark · 06/04/2024 14:12

It's satire, not about intelligence and stupidity, except as a metaphor for where we are now with present-day obsessions and taboos. She's always been a rebel of sorts from childhood and continues to be outspoken and contrary,with a bit of provocation thrown in but always with what I think of as a kind of American candour and freedom of thought.

Original poster
stressedout1994 · 06/04/2024 14:12

@Abhannmor that's exactly how I feel! I think that a lot of the people who are preoccupied by natural / genetic intelligence secretly (or not very secretly) harbour the conviction that they are the gleaming ubermensch, being 'cancelled' or upbraided by us mewling, envious untermensch. Where has your genius got you, Lionel! You have to keep company with the free speech nutters ! Not very edifying or fun !

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