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AIBU?

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China and our children. AIBU to be deeply concerned?

420 replies

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 07:39

I read this article and am so concerned. So many of our kids are on TT.

https://nypost.com/2023/02/25/china-is-hurting-us-kids-with-tiktok-but-protecting-its-own/amp/

Basically, TT and other SM have the same effect on our brain as addictive substances such as heroine. Developers know this and create highly addictive (make use of our knowledge of the reward centre in our brain), apps/platforms/games that leave us with dopamine crashes when we can’t have it. So that tantrum or meltdown when we say ‘turn screens off now’ is partly, if not mostly, to do with that, is one example.

The article above says that China use different algorithms there for TT so it is helpful for children’s development. They are peddling addictive, concentration lowering crap to children around the world, but protecting their own children.

Why are we allowing this? Why are we not protecting our children too? The science is there.

And AIBU to think that we are at risk, as a country, of raising a generation that will be less well adapted and more vulnerable in the future to a hostile take over?

China is hurting our kids with TikTok but protecting its own youth with Douyin

TikTok is burrowing into the devices — and the brains — of teens and tweens around the world. But, as the app’s Beijing-based parent company Bytedance is aggressively exporting the social media equ…

https://nypost.com/2023/02/25/china-is-hurting-us-kids-with-tiktok-but-protecting-its-own/amp/

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Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:52

Ilovecaviar · 02/04/2024 13:49

This isn’t entirely true. It shows you a variety of videos when you first start and for some videos you don’t understand what you are watching until the whole video has ended or you once you do realise that you don’t want to watch it and swipe up.
This seems especially true of videos about sex trafficking, abuse etc so once you have watched one, it serves you more. A lot of this content is extremely hard hitting and upsetting and unfortunately there is not much chance to stop the algorithm once it thinks you want to watch it.
now factor in young teens accessing this for the first time, what parent has thought to go through this with their kids before they let them join up? People just don’t know how bad it can be.
more studies have shown how additive the algorithm is even on ‘nice’ content. It is addictive, it is designed to be this way.
I also saw a tik tok, ironically, that showed someone set up a profile of a 13 year old girl and within hours the type of content that was served to that account around eating disorders.
I have deleted my account now and I wouldn’t ever go back.

Yes. I heard a Radio 4 piece about a similar experiment. Within 20 mins a video of animal abuse, lingered on it and then more and more of that kind of content.

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Noraton · 02/04/2024 14:50

@Concerningalgorithms Our government doesnt care, I sont think any political party will care about this tbh.

From my very limited experience of Chinese culture, it is so different to the UK. The parents have high expectations of their children. Education is everything.

Our country is f£%#ked up.. we have useless parents who won't engage with support, we have awful children terrorising schools and communities and a govt that doesnt care.

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:49

stayathomer · 02/04/2024 13:47

And the tantrumming thing you speak of, we have a non stop battle with screens, taking them away, banning, restricting, doing the ‘come on family games night’, ‘come on, family walk’, getting kids over, going to activities, forcing them into playing with the dog etc etc.

Even with all that my kids are bemused when they hear of kids screaming and tantruming over screens. An adult with asd that my dh works with said the best thing is mum ever did was take away his iPad when he’d stayed up all night gaming and missed college. She just got rid of it.

He said he had a two day meltdown and then came down to his family again. We need to parent our way out of this (and to be fair I’ve been on mn too much lately- I need to get back to real life too!)

I’ve heard similar stories at work. Kids ultimately relieved to be free from the addiction or the pressure of SM. It’s toxic and like all toxins, should be moderated and kids protected from them b

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GoodnightAdeline · 02/04/2024 14:47

YANBU and parents now need to realise tech is out of the control of the government and manage their own kids lives. Don’t buy them a tablet at all, buy them a basic phone when they reach secondary age, and keep them busy with other things and playing outside.

I’m not going to place my kids mental health in the hands of large tech companies and our transient incompetent governments, I’m going to take it into my own hands and not allow them to descend into screen addiction through laziness and weak parenting.

LinLui · 02/04/2024 14:47

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:43

Yes. I guess we could just accept that we will head down the ranks in terms of our global and economic status. It would be fair in the long arc of history. I want more for my children and their generation though.

China has an abominable record on human rights and I don’t agree with a lot that they do. Likewise with many other nations.

What it’s not is a nation known for compassion in terms of its people.

Really? The whole nation lacks compassion? There goes that "yellow peril" thing again. The Chinese government may have its faults. Criticise the policies, not the people. Or should we judge everyone in the UK on the record of the UK government? Or all Americans to be little copies of Donald Trump. Not a lot of compassion in damning an entire nation, is there?

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:46

fitzwilliamdarcy · 02/04/2024 13:38

Perhaps the government could raise all children according to an agreed set of standards and hand them back to parents once they hit 18?

Or alternatively we could perhaps expect the people who’ve chosen to bring life into today’s world to, I don’t know, inform themselves and parent?

Yep. It’s a parental responsibility but we legislate around other addictive and harmful things so why not this?

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starfall1 · 02/04/2024 14:46

This thread is fascinating. It’s clear that some participants are well-educated and possess a critical mindset, while others seem to accept everything presented by certain media sources without independent thought. It’s noteworthy that these media sources often present conflicting viewpoints

EarringsandLipstick · 02/04/2024 14:45

@Concerningalgorithms

I think you make valid points, despite my disagreement with your assessment of risk or proposed solutions.

Why you continue to frame your points in the context of blanket denigration of China is puzzling. As much as I disagree with China's governance, policies & direction, comments like What it’s not is a nation known for compassion in terms of its people. are quite shocking.

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:45

Saschka · 02/04/2024 13:32

For somebody who doesn’t like China, you are certainly a fan of authoritarianism.

Nope. It’s not that I don’t like China. I don’t like its abuses of human rights and I’m fearful about its flexing in military terms. I suspect it’s intervening re SM is strategic and not child centred.

Not a fan of authoritarianism. I am a fan of science led, compassionate governance though.

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LinLui · 02/04/2024 14:43

CroftonWillow · 02/04/2024 14:39

Ah, so your opinion is political rather than evidence based.

I am sorry? Isn't politics evidence based? We called it "critical thinking" in the olden days - being capable of forming complex ideas and patterns of thought rather than looking for knee jerk and simplistic answers. I realise that it isn't quite as common nowadays. Must be a result of smart phones.

EarringsandLipstick · 02/04/2024 14:43

Every generation has its "scary" thing that is responsible for warping the young and undermining the bastions of civilisation (usually referred to as "us"). Once it was rock n' roll.

💯 this.

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:43

logicisall · 02/04/2024 13:44

If you are concerned about the Chinese government mining our data, let me introduce you to the all American, Big Five of Apple, Alphabet (Google), Amazon, Meta (Facebook) and Microsoft. What do you think of our government possibly selling our NHS medical data to American drug companies in future?

"I didn’t say they were evil. But they are out to dominate the world."
If you don't think China is evil why does it matter if they want to dominate the world? What exactly does world domination look like today? World's largest economy/GDP/population?

At various times in world history different countries have dominated the world, so nothing new there. I'm more concerned about how China is buying up natural resources in less developed countries in Africa and South America than the TT consumption habits of young people.

Yes. I guess we could just accept that we will head down the ranks in terms of our global and economic status. It would be fair in the long arc of history. I want more for my children and their generation though.

China has an abominable record on human rights and I don’t agree with a lot that they do. Likewise with many other nations.

What it’s not is a nation known for compassion in terms of its people.

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CroftonWillow · 02/04/2024 14:39

LinLui · 02/04/2024 14:37

I'm 66, have never been on Tik Toc, don't have a Facebook account, and I wouldn't believe anything that our or the US government had to say on pretty much any subject under the sun. The UK and US governments have their own agendas, and are hardly sterling examples of truth, honesty or decency.

Every generation has its "scary" thing that is responsible for warping the young and undermining the bastions of civilisation (usually referred to as "us"). Once it was rock n' roll. The young will survive Tik Toc. I wish I was sure they will survive the lack of a decent education, a lack of a health service, a lack of decent jobs, wages and standards of living. Perhaps if the government wanted to do something about all those things, people wouldn't want to escape their reality.

Ah, so your opinion is political rather than evidence based.

EarringsandLipstick · 02/04/2024 14:38

We legislate around other potentially harmful and addictive things to protect children so why not this?

I've answered this but just to add - the way forward is education, of parents & children, and support.

Legislating as you suggest, in open democracies, will not be observed, especially by those who don't see any harm.

And ultimately, it couldn't be enforced.

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:38

Elliania · 02/04/2024 13:28

Because too many parents either don't know, don't care or otherwise don't enforce boundaries and regulations on their own children.

At the very heart of this issue - the onus is and should be on parents to protect their own children rather than the government or another governing body stepping in to do a job that isn't in their remit.

So would you like to see the legislation around smoking, alcohol and gambling rolled back?

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LinLui · 02/04/2024 14:37

CroftonWillow · 02/04/2024 14:19

You're getting a lot of pushback OP, I'd imagine by those who are either young themselves or habitual tiktok users or both. You are absolutely correct regarding your concerns for childrens development and the behaviour of the Chinese Government. Our government and the US government overwhelmingly agrees with you.

I'm 66, have never been on Tik Toc, don't have a Facebook account, and I wouldn't believe anything that our or the US government had to say on pretty much any subject under the sun. The UK and US governments have their own agendas, and are hardly sterling examples of truth, honesty or decency.

Every generation has its "scary" thing that is responsible for warping the young and undermining the bastions of civilisation (usually referred to as "us"). Once it was rock n' roll. The young will survive Tik Toc. I wish I was sure they will survive the lack of a decent education, a lack of a health service, a lack of decent jobs, wages and standards of living. Perhaps if the government wanted to do something about all those things, people wouldn't want to escape their reality.

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:37

ThursdayTomorrow · 02/04/2024 13:26

Young children shouldn’t be on social media. Teens should have their time limited. It’s easy to do - just need to parent.

Yup. And I do. But plenty don’t for many reasons.

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Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:36

Otherstories2002 · 02/04/2024 13:25

And it’s not via legislation is it. It’s parenting.

30 years of working with kids and families has taught me that parents do their best but there are massive differences in terms of education, parenting ability, resources and investment in children. We legislate around other potentially harmful and addictive things to protect children so why not this?

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EarringsandLipstick · 02/04/2024 14:36

OP, you keep saying that we legislate for use of drugs, alcohol, gambling, why not more restrictions around (say) TT or other social media?

The reason is very simple.

There is no demonstrable benefit to consuming alcohol or drugs, or gambling, at a young age. The most that some could argue (that I wouldn't agree with) is that it does no harm.

However, it is clear that there's potential harm, physically, and by connection, other ways, by any of these substances / activities.

Inappropriate use of SM / tech will certainly cause harm. But there's certainly benefits & positive outputs.

Governments need to push tech companies to manage / prevent the harmful content (as they are aiming to do) but not respond by excessively limiting individuals. (There are already requirements around age limits).

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:33

Otherstories2002 · 02/04/2024 13:09

You’re aware that China can do this because they don’t have freedom of speech? Religion? Siginciant human right issues etc. they limit what children and adults can access.

Well that’s the other side of the coin of course and it has to be a balance. But we legislate around alcohol, smoking and gambling.

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Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:31

Otherstories2002 · 02/04/2024 12:53

So ban sweets? Crisps? McDonald’s? Airing of films on tv etc? When does being a parent kick on.

Sugar aside, those things don’t have the same addictive qualities. And they also don’t have an impact on your ability to concentrate.

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LinLui · 02/04/2024 14:30

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:15

I agree that it can go too far but we legislate around smoking, gambling and alcohol. Why not this?

And yes, lots of threats to us, not just China. The article just made me think.

And the legislation around smoking, gambling and alcohol has worked so well, hasn't it? Not a single child or young adult engages in any of those things. Contrary to what I observe in my local park.... Admittedly smoking seems to have reduced. They are all vaping instead. Ban something and you simply make it more desirable. And in terms of technology, the genie is out of the bottle and won't be going back in.... if "it" (whatever it is) isn't on the web, it will be on the dark web. People stop doing things when they choose to, and they will only choose to when the have the ability, wherewithall, and opportunity to choose. Young people are no different in that respect than adults.

Isn't a better question, why do so many people - adults as well - find the internet world so much more attractive that real life? What makes it easier to become "addicted" to such fluff than existing outside the cyber world? Looking around at the future that young people are facing in the UK now, I can hazard a few guesses, and China wouldn't be one of them. Addiction is, and always has been, something that arises out of hopelessness. That may not be the only trigger or cause - but it is a significant one. Addiction is one of the ultimate escape routes.

EarringsandLipstick · 02/04/2024 14:30

CroftonWillow · 02/04/2024 14:19

You're getting a lot of pushback OP, I'd imagine by those who are either young themselves or habitual tiktok users or both. You are absolutely correct regarding your concerns for childrens development and the behaviour of the Chinese Government. Our government and the US government overwhelmingly agrees with you.

I'm neither young, nor a habitual user! I don't use it personally, just professionally.

My points are made in relation to TT, yes, also wider screen / SM use.

Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:24

ntmdino · 02/04/2024 12:30

Look at it another way - imagine this thread was about the USA, and then re-read your comment.

Still makes sense, doesn't it?

I actually don't mind the Chinese government doing all of that, because it distracts some of the worst elements of the US government (and vice-versa). When they stop distracting each other, you get...well, similar to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Putin was only able to do that because Trump managed to convince enough people that Putin was his bezzy mate, so nobody was watching while he was preparing the invasion.

As long as any of China, Russia and the US exist in their current militant forms, we need all three of them to carry on doing what they're doing so they don't bother the rest of us.

That’s an interesting perspective. Food for thought.

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Concerningalgorithms · 02/04/2024 14:22

C152 · 02/04/2024 12:15

I don't think your approach to this concern has done you any favours here, OP. Yes, different activities, online or otherwise, affect neural pathways. That isn't news, nor is the fact that social media is geared towards keeping you on a particular site for as long as possible, so the site can harvest more information about you. That is literally their business plan. You only get to the potential solution - legislation - in your latest post. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise why legisliation is taking so long - money. To give a well worn example, tobacco was introduced in the UK in the 16th century. It's link to cancer was known for decades (if not longer) before it was finally banned indoors in 2007.

Technology itself isn't inheritantly bad. But it does need to be taught and used appropriately (see recent article which alludes to how it could be integrated well), which is where we are failing. Are we going to improve any time soon? No. It really isn't a priority, particularly given basic services are so sub-standard. As I see it, the crux of your complaint is why are we as a society failing to build our future? I don't have an answer to that, although I suspect it has a lot to do with the political system and obsession with short term plans to win elections rather than long term planning to build a society beneficial to all.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/27/free-lunches-brain-breaks-and-happy-teachers-why-estonia-has-the-best-schools-in-europe

I agree. I guess legislation is what’s helped with smoking. But education has a huge role to play. But our education system is creaking. I see so many kids struggling 🙁

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