For DH to insist on vaginal birth not ceasarean

Not bonkers. Their choice, as emphasised by clinical guidelines. You may not agree or understand, but you don't have to.

Okay, but IF you are having a massive baby or you have polyhyd., then that’s not really a healthy pregnancy. You also won’t have a choice as drs will recommend / force a C-section on you.

But for a perfectly healthy pregnant woman to elect for an csection because she is scared of natural birth is bonkers.

The problem with that data (happy to be corrected if wrong) is that it only divides C-sections into planned, and emergencies. The one pager doesn't give any details of the specific studies used to form conclusions
However, many women with higher risk pregnancies are advised to have a C-section. It is likely that they also hence have a higher risk of maternal death which then materialises. This shouldn't be lumped into the same category as those who genuinely have a free choice.
In short, what proportion of maternal deaths - in both categories - are due to pre-existing risk factors? As opposed to suddenly occurring in a low-risk pregnancies.

There are other studies such as this which show little difference
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2589933323003282
And references the WHO article but one really needs to dig deeper into the sample data and associated factors.

Compared to the alternative it’s pretty nice. There is no easy option with childbirth. I’ve done it twice and was great both times. Maybe I’ve just got a good hospital as a lot of people I know from nct had them too and all found them great. I don’t know anyone who was actually recovering for as long as six weeks. A couple had vbacs after were shocked at how much harder they were, even if you could get up straight after.

Its literally one scar and my body is fine…

@Irisginger

I think the link I gave before was this meta analysis as it is the most up to date
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00404-023-07059-9

However, you would need to login for the full text.

There is a lot of research on this at the moment, nothing definitive - there will always be opposing opinion and a lot of the work relative to this and gut microbiota/immune system is still far from understood.

Personally not my area, but fascinating, and enough to make me wary and feel gutted about my birth that ended in CS, though grateful it saved my life.

@Irisginger

Cesarean delivery was linked to an increased likelihood of ASD (crude OR=2.46, 95% CI: 1.40-4.33). The association remained statistically significant, even after adjusting the potential confounding factors (reported previously in the scientific literature) in the first model (adjusted OR=2.9, 95% CI: 1.57-5.35).

It is recommended that preventive measures are adopted to avoid unnecessary cesarean sections.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8015537/#:~:text=Cesarean%20delivery%20was%20linked%20to,CI%3A%201.57%2D5.35).

Sunds like his mask is slipping to me. Domestic abuse often starts during pregnancy & they're almost always perfect partners until then. If she hasn't already utilised Clare's Law then she really ought to before baby arrives.

Sorry, haven't read the references yet, but does this correlation still exist when controlled for parental age as an independent variable?

Yes, on that I completely agree with you.

@Vod

This os precisely why I put up the stats from NICE as everyone seems to agree on their guidelines being fair and in the best interests of all.

We are all going to have our own biases and hang ups about birth. We could sit here and argue all day trying to outdo one another with horror stories of VB and CS - because both exist and are plentiful.

The fact is, the only information that is at all relevant to any woman making the decision is that provided via her doctor and sources such as NICE.

@Scirocco

me too! ECS

I’m saying for the fit and healthy person who has a choice between both options.

I had shoulder dystocia with my first. Once you have experienced that you would understand why women opt for a c section.

For me it would depend on the absolute risk of death, which is fortunately very low here.

So eg I'd take a 1 in a million risk of death over a 1 in a thousand risk of fecal incontinence in just about any situation, for example (figures made up for simplicity). But this is why the only acceptable approach is for women to be able to weigh up the risks and benefits for themselves.

For me, that was a C-section.

Both have pros and cons, and each individual person can make their own assessment of how those risks balance out for them.

death??

I would rather be incontinent than dead.

I would go for the option with lesser risk of death every time!

@Zone2NorthLondon

Please see the NICE guidelines regarding comparison of risk for VB vs CS.

@Justkeeepswimming

none of the c section stuff that you list is as bad as incontinence is it

Exactly. There are risks to both types of birth, for the mother and baby. Each woman and pregnancy will have factors to consider, either from physical or mental health and/or personal circumstances (eg I can’t imagine looking after a baby after a cs section if I didn’t have a partner but I’m sure others have managed).
let each woman choose what is best for them.

People get very odd about this issue. I think it's a mixture of the natural fallacy and mistaken belief about costs.

This 100%. I personally wouldn't choose c-section, but I would unwaveringly argue for the rights of any informed woman to choose this for herself (or any other decisions related to her birth) without talk of her having to pay for her own care. Where do we draw the line?!

I don't know why some people are getting their knickers in a knot about elective c sections. Lots of other procedures on the nhs aren't essential, why should women's health be one that gets removed? Women have a right to choose how they give birth in the uk.

And everything to do with the NHS capacity to treat and not endanger life.

And currently that includes elective C sections. So really not your business although you can of course campaign for that to be withdrawn if it bothers you. There's plenty of treatments which I personally think are optional luxuries, but so be it.

@IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle

Their decision to pay for it or push for it via nhs

Some will prefer private treatment.

In some trusts getting ECS might be easier than others, despite the new guidelines

And really it has nothing to do with you contributing lots, taking little and being due something.

And everything to do with the NHS capacity to treat and not endanger life.

Oh bore off with " pay for elective CS.

I had an elective CS, it was suggested I might need one but not essential. I was 31 then. I next saw a doctor in my early 60s. GP remarked on my almost empty file that "we don't see much of you, do we?" . I' m a non-smoking, virtually non drinking, higher rate tax payer then and now. None of that background is particularly relevant but if it matters to you (general you or you in particular) I've paid far more in tax and NI than the cost of one CS over 30 years ago.

People use the NHS for all sorts of things and some people think the NHS is being "abused" if the treatment is something they don't approve of or is self- inflicted or generally think others shouldn't get. But ultimately it's none of your business if the treatment is offered.