For DH to insist on vaginal birth not ceasarean

I’m sorry you had that experience. As a fit and still fairly young first time mum, I always intended to have as little interventions unless necessary thinking my pregnancy and birth would be straightforward - but I was always open to them if medical advice. Turns out increasing reduced movement in my final weeks and constantly being in triage meant I needed my first intervention: an induction. It came with risks of course but the risk of not having one and stillbirth obviously far outweighed these other smaller risks. There was not a chance I’d refuse one in these circumstances. (Tbh, I don’t think I would if I was past term either, when they tend to be offered more commonly. I’m very much of the belief that I’m not the medical expert but obviously respect that women can make their own choices about their unborn babies, births and bodies.) My baby was also in distress during labour so another intervention came: this time an EMCS. I never want to be in this position again and it is more likely I will be due to my pelvis and cervix so I will have an elective if I have another baby.

Context shapes every woman’s subsequent birthing choices as it has with you and me but women should also be able to have any intervention they want - or indeed none - just because too.

I really don’t blame you, - your body and your choice.

I didn't have "unnecessary surgery" on the NHS. I paid for it. I was taking no chance that someone would try to make me give birth vaginally. Best money I ever spent. It cost less than a couple of pricey holidays, or a kitchen extension, something many people would no qualms spending that amount of money on.

My work involves assessing women in childbirth personal injury litigation. In 30 years I have seen hundreds of women who gave birth vaginally. I was never going allow anyone to make me give birth vaginally, whatever.

Fully agree. And thinking women ought to be forced to do things they don't want to do with their vaginas is a rapey ideology. Nobody who thinks that should be around anyone vulnerable.

A c-section is still painful. Its her choice as its her body; pros and cons for both and nobody is to say she won't end up with a section anyway. Good luck to your friend.

Quite. Surely if one can insist on a home birth or can insist they are not having an induction or even a bloody free birth (😵‍💫), someone else can insist on an epidural or elective or whatever. I know there are times when a home birth is totally out of the question of course.

Sounds awful! I wasn’t referring to anyone specifically but it was language used on a hypnobirthing course I did so I was in for the shock of my life when I went into labour! 😆

I find guys like this "insisting on a vaginal birth" fucking creepy.

*not series, a selection of

You think rational thought is exasperating? Oh dear. Not only have you committed the fallacy of a false dichotomy - claiming that the NICE is either a 'reliable source' or not - you've also completely failed to see the contradiction in your position. And have demonstrated an astounding ignorance of statistical methods.

It is you who disagrees with the NICE guidelines yet, at the same time, put up a one-pager from the same organisation seemingly in support of your position. That an ELCS is completely unnecessary, etc etc.

However the statistics that you posted claimed no such thing. It is not data 'directly from NICE', i.e. a major study commissioned, performed and controlled by the organisation. It was derived from a series of studies - all of which have different methodologies, sample sizes, etc and condensed into single figures.

The reason NICE gives women a choice is because there is no conclusive evidence either way. No large scale study has been performed taking a majority of the relevant variables into account, if that's even possible. If, this 'reliable source of health data' that you claim to post definitely exists, and it had been conclusively proven. Why would they give people a choice?

Putting statistics all over the place doesn't prove anything. You have to dig deep to understand the variables, confounding factors, etc. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

BTW, I'm not 100% pro-section. I'm still early in my journey and could change my mind still. Despite what you claim I have no 'narrative'. All I have done is explain my reasons for my current leanings, and, multiple times, emphasized that the decision making responsibility lies between women and their medical teams. Who explain the pros and cons of both methods.

I do not claim any expert medical knowledge and so have not deigned to tell people what they should and should not be doing. Unlike you, who keeps making the arrogant presumption of knowing what surgery is 'unnecessary' despite not being medically trained or qualified. It is you who is actively trying to construct a narrative that women are choosing C-sections for frivolous reasons and so shouldn't be given the choice, putting in statistics to support that and getting angry and, erm 'exasperated' when questioned. It is you who claim that women are choosing heightened risks of X and Y with these ELCS while completely failing to acknowledge that risks A and B from a vaginal birth may be less bearable, or the existence of other extenuating factors. All of these will have been explained by the people qualified to do so, to them. They are not making decisions based on the opinion of randoms.

You are not medically qualified nor, from the way you use data even capable of basic statistical reasoning. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as you so aptly demonstrate. You're not as clever as you think you are... maybe take some basic courses on critical thinking and the use of statistics in constructing a coherent picture of the true situation.

@babytakemehome

Forgive me, but this is starting to become exasperating.

Women in favour of caesarean have been yammering on here about their right to have completely unnecessary major surgery for free via the NHS because NICE guidelines state that they are entitled to it and they must have a choice to put themselves and baby at greater risk of death to avoid vaginal tearing and incontinence.

And so I put up data directly from NICE because clearly it is the oracle…. And now you have a problem with it because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

Either you agree that NICE are a reliable source or you don’t - you can’t have them to suit purposes for CS on NHS and then disregard them because you don’t like their health data.

@Lelophants

…. Ok so I have gone through repeated abdominal surgery and I can tell you that with each abdominal surgery there are adhesions and internal scar tissue that can pose problems later - particularly if you need multiple caesareans or other abdominal surgery in life…

But you can go ahead and think that it is just a small scar if that is what you want to believe.

@arecklessmanor No, as I said, in cases of convenience. Labour shouldn't be about timetables; it takes as long as it takes and should happen when it happens.

Well I hope you’re not in any way involved in caring for women professionally with your attitude. It’s a very narrow view. I would never want a home birth because an ELCS is my preferred option. What you call ‘convenience’ might actually be a desire to avoid unnecessary risks in labour, unnecessary harm to the mental health of a mother (who if all goes well no matter what birth method will soon have a newborn to look after).
I get that your epidural was not good, but it doesn’t mean that thousands (millions?) of women don’t benefit from them.

I don’t think ELCS is the easy way out. But it is one way forward. Women deserve the medical care best suited to their circumstances. Appropriate pain relief can help some women cope with pain in labour leading to better outcomes, not worse.

Which is again why choice is important.

Being fully informed means I was more than happy to have an epidural. The next woman may feel differently because we make different risk assessments with the same information.

@SouthLondonMum22 Absolutely. Being fully informed and also doing my research was exactly why I opted for an IM homebirth.

Which can apply to anything, including homebirths.

Of course the choice should be a fully informed one. I don't think anyone would argue against that.

@SouthLondonMum22 Whilst I don't disagree in principle, I think it's incredibly important to make sure this choice is fully informed. I am confident, unfortunately, that this is not always the case.

The point is we shouldn't be taking away a woman's choice. If you don't want a homebirth, don't have one.

Same thing applies to epidurals and elective c-sections.

@SouthLondonMum22 Makes no odds as there are dedicated homebirth teams so actually, homebirthers are freeing up the hospital-based midwives.
And my personal homebirth was with an IM so did not work for the NHS (thank God - height of Covid when zero f2f care except for in labour!)

He probably doesn't want to do all the vacuuming & driving for 6 weeks after!

Maybe in that case homebirths should be banned so hospitals can be less stretched with midwives.

@Jo58 My first labour lasted three days and my second one two, so I wouldn't say it was just a case of "breathing" my baby out!
Third labour was longest...waters partially went 72 hours before labour even started, then about 48 hours from first "proper" contraction to delivery. I was 39 so an older mum and 10 years between children so this may have been some of the reason as to why labour took so long.
My husband (his first and last baby) had no idea labours could last so long, love him!
But after my firstborn epidural problems I knew categorically I wouldn't opt for another one.

Yeah, I’ll be getting an elective if I’m lucky enough to have another. I didn’t give a second thought about me on that operating table after going to theatre as my baby was in distress. It was truly a time in my life when a minute felt like a lifetime.

Indeed. It’s pure luck if you can ‘breathe’ your baby out.