What makes you middle class?

Teachers get the same paid holidays as everyone else, the rest IS unpaid. You can disagree all you like but it’s in our contract.

I get just over 0.2 days annual leave per day worked, which is 40 days per year as outlined below:

5.2 The normal pattern of annual leave will be determined by the council, after consultation with the teacher trade unions recognised by the council. It is recommended that annual leave given in full weeks and is set as follows – Autumn Holiday 5 days, Festive Holiday 10 Days, Spring Holiday 10 days, Summer Holiday 15 days (to include the final week of the holiday period).

I started teaching 13 years ago, so I’m not wet behind the ears but not long in the tooth either.
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I do not know anyone who works in the school their children attend, it’s frowned upon to live too close to the school you work in because it can blur professional/personal lines. There are no school based after school clubs here either, and we most certainly don’t get discounts (although I don’t know anyone in the private sector)

If teachers have it so much easier than everyone else, why haven’t you retrained?

My in-laws said that the definition of being middle class is being able to afford an 80inch TV on the wall, with dolby etc. but don't buy it because its 'vulgar'.

My mothers definition of middle class was 'knowing the difference between an aubergine and a courgette'. I still have a chuckle to myself in LidL / Waitrose.

Admittedly, as a teacher you don't get to choose them, and holidays are way more expensive, but for twice the holidays as virtually every other job, I think I'd go for the teachers set up.

Teachers also don’t get any more holidays than retail workers. @Notmyuser , how do you work that out?

Retail workers are under some of the worst contracts going, FT statutory is 20 days plus BH? 28 Total? Teachers are, what, 12 weeks plus BH outside of school holidays?

I have seen teachers try the old, "we're salaried for the 40 weeks" trick and the holidays are unpaid. That's pretty disingenuous. I'm on a fixed salary and don't go around saying I'm on 50k p.a. for 260 days minus 25 annual leave minus 8 days BH so I I'm salaried 227 days for £50k. If you compare that like-for-like the teachers package looks even better!

@Notmyuser

Where we are there are too many qualified teachers for the jobs available. A lot are doing sub work to get experience. Many of the older teachers are being paid off because it is cheaper to do this and bring in new blood than to keep them on another 5 years and have to pay for subs.

You cannot transpose what happens in one area to all.

I’m presuming you started teaching quite a while ago if that was your starting wage, or was that your unqualified wage?

I can adamantly tell you having been married to a person who worked in retail and family member of multiple teachers… the retail worker is usually contractually obliged to do overtime - this means that all fairness in terms of days off goes out the window. They also will have to do weekends, bank holidays, Halloween, Christmas, Easter (all especially busy), summer holidays and half term!!

You are absolutely bananas if you think retail - for a full time job - is more family friendly. My DH started at 9 for a 12 hr shift!!

You are also talking out of your hat relative to pick ups and drop offs - pretty much everyone I know - myself, family and friends and there are a tonne of them, along with DC friends who have teacher parents go to the same school as their parent!!! It makes sense and is the default. At the end of school they walk to their parent’s classroom or they go to afterschool club which is of course reduced in price as child of staff!! Breakfast club also reduced for staff. For goodness sake one I am related to works in a private school and they get 50% off the fees for their kids! By the way their partner manages to work a full time more demanding job and doesn’t need to be a SAHM.

I’m am sorry but I cannot buy the ‘poor teacher’ rhetoric at the moment when there are so many more much worse off and even more than that who suffered enormous inequality and financial hardship during the pandemic.

And actually I have several friends and relatives in 30s in the profession now so I am not just talking about geriatrics!!

NRTWT but someone mentioned a love of education was universal and thus all of us were MC. Not sure about that. DP is from a deprived background. His sister is married to a builder and seems to be raking it in. White Range Rover, regular holidays abroad, constantly socialising, blingy home and yet the local schools are appalling. If I had that money to burn it would be on private education. It doesn’t occur to them that this could be possibility, they’d rather spend money on 10 year old daughter getting false nails and slug eye brows.

No teachers who have qualified in the last 10+ years are retiring at 60, nor are they getting redundancy. They are crying out for teachers, not paying them off and letting them go. Not sure what you aren’t grasping here?

Whwn I started teaching I was on £21k, working 70+ hours per week. I was earning less per hour than I was working in retail.

Teachers also don’t get any more holidays than retail workers. Since you are so close to so many teachers, you know that, right? You also know they can never take a day off at their own will?

It is difficult for the partner of a teacher to work full time as there is zero flexibility in a teachers schedule. A teacher can never do school drop offs and pickups. A teacher can never do anything that happens in their child’s school during the school day. That is different from most min wage jobs - for example my previous role in retail, where I worked shifts - actually, that is far more family friendly than teaching.

You are comparing what geriatrics who were once teachers lived through to what the reality is for young teachers today.

I don’t know what you’re driving at?? Current age when you are entitled to the state pension is 66 for men, if you really want to spilt hairs it would have been 65 in 2011 when FIL reached it.

By contrast teacher parents got out under 60 via redundancy, current family intend to do the same.

My point is I have lived with and am close to multiple teachers so I am aware of the workload and the amount of time off. That and the salary are very clearly different to a working class person trying to earn even the base teacher salary on 50+ hours a week.

Dear god - unqualified teachers would be earning under 28k, for qualified they start at 28k and move their way up the pay grade. If you are minimum wage job that is your lot!!! And pension massively different! As well as unsociable hours, having to work weekends and less holidays.

The quality of life is not comparable.

If someone decides to work part time or wants to be a SAHP rather than work that is their choice.

Are you honestly saying a teacher should be paid more so their partner can sit at home?! 😂

Does anyone want to 'class' me?

Maternal Grandfather: Civil Engineer, Water. Notable projects in Bristol, Beirut and Iraq.

Maternal Grandmother: didn't work as far as I know. Her mother's parents owned a fair bit of land in North Wales but my grandmother's uncle inherited most of it, and as an alcoholic, drank it all away. My grandmother went to a type of finishing school.

Paternal Grandfather: retired from the Army as a Lieutenant Colonel in the REME. Worked for a Saudi National Guard after that, and worked for the Jordanian army after that.

Paternal Grandmother: didn't work, lived as an army wife.

Paternal Great-Grandfather: Fireman. Notable in the local area (Sheppey), potentially because of his enormous height of 6'2".

Paternal Great-Grandmother: didn't work as far as I know.

My parents dropped out of university in the first year, had me by accident at ages 21 and 24. My parents divorced. Mum never worked when I was growing up, her new husband was a carpet layer (he was privately educated though).
Mum went back to university when I was 17 and trained as a maths teacher.
My dad worked for Virgin Mailing as it was known at the time. Didn't need any quals to get the job, worked his way right up to senior management.

I have 10 GCSEs and no other qualifications. Worked as a PA in a London property firm where I met my husband. I'm now a SAHM.
Our household income is c£500k a year. My children go to private school.

And I bet your sons kids (if he has kids) will probably be more solidly middle class than he is, and so on.

Unfortunately social mobility isn’t available for all, but for a significant minority it is.

Anyway, alas I'm not a member of the leisured class! So, must get on with stuff. Interesting (if slightly depressing) discussion though.

Not necessarily. I agree. But it is a factor that adds middle class 'points'! Most of the class surveys ask you about home ownership, so sociologists obviously regard it as relevant.

My son did actually ask me that recently because he’s never thought about it and he was curious. Reason being, although we own our own house and he went to private (senior, state primary) his home life has been more working class (because of me, single mum). For instance his best friend (very middle class) would go skiing every year (my son has never been), and it’s obvious that his friend is proper middle class whereas my son has more obvious working class elements.

I tend to see myself as living a stereotypical middle class lifestyle as opposed to feeling defined by a class itself.

Well, we can hopefully all agree to respectfully disagree. This thread has shown me that people have such varied views on this. I honestly always have thought it was simply a case that if you are an educated professional such as a doctor or lawyer, you're middle class. I still think that.
I also though do think though that society has changed enormously, and there are lots of grey areas in many cases. I also think people are just people ultimately. Othering is not a good idea.

But your kids may well be middle class?

Although financially you can move up and down the ‘class’ scale what you are innately can’t really be changed (imho). My kids went to private school, I own my own house but I’m not middle class as a person. My brain, my identity (my ‘essence’) can only ever be working class. I can pretend to be middle class but that’s all it would be.

I honestly still think it’s a grey area, I was earning £16k back in 2006 working evenings in a call centre when I was at school. Had I stuck at it I’d probably have got on the property ladder younger than I did after going to uni. I’d probably be earning at least what I am now, but I wouldn’t be university educated. I’ve not got the earning ceiling in my workplace whereas at least if I stayed private sector I could have further progression.

I don’t think it’s as simple as it seems and I think, as others are saying, social mobility is generational. Therefore even if I was earning £100k and married to a millionaire, I’d still be working class, maybe aspirational middle class. My kids though …. Not so much.

You make a really important point.
I almost think home ownership and asset wealth or lack thereof, is kind of a new and emerging class system.
I read an article by Owen Jones saying that many from middle class backgrounds are becoming precariats (still middle class even, not sure?) Meanwhile, others have done remarkably well out of property at the expense of others, regardless of their own background.
Class is changing constantly. Though I think Karl Marx would have regarded home owners, and especially landlords, as part of the bourgeoisie.

I was brought up middle class but went to a state school, work for minimum wage and live on a council estate so I believe I can see in both directions. It's just a shitty way to divide people.

But you’ve pointed to one factor - home ownership - that is relevant and and associated with being middle class but is not determinative of it. There’s a whole complex menu of other factors involved too.

As someone else said, Wayne Rooney is a multi-millionaire and owns multiple houses but he is working class and he always will be.

Well, salaried professionals. I mean those who've had to achieve at a higher education level.

Salaried means nothing, I had a salaried job when I was 17 and still at school. Home ownership isn’t particularly indicative either, we bought our first home for £65k with a £6k deposit that was mostly funded by us working two jobs each while staying with parents.